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#1 Ringtail

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 05:09

I'm replaying TLJ, and have just gotten through the part of Chapter 2 where Westhouse tells April his story about traveling to India, then Tibet, then across the Divide.  He describes Manny Chavez, who helped him, as tall, dark, cryptic, and "smokes like a chimney."  And April agrees, except for the smoking part.

 

And you know what I thought then?  What I would like to be true (but which is, I think, impossible) is that Manny Chavez is not, in fact, Cortez, but is in reality a different form for Jacob McAllen, the Green Kin.  'Cause in light of Dreamfall, Chavez is a super jerk - basically, setting Brian up to experience something horrifying (and likely, condemning him to possession by the Undreaming, and all the nastiness that's tied to) - and that seems out of character for the Red Kin.  The Red is probably the Kin who helped set up the Sentinel, and Cortez in TLJ seems pretty concerned with preserving the status quo.  So sowing the seeds of destruction through Brian seems really out of keeping with his actions in TLJ.

 

You know who it would be in character for?  The Green Kin - McAllen, using the same human face as the Red, but different mannerisms -- like maybe smoking, and having a creepier voice?

 

I know it's not the case, and that Chavez = Cortez, but boy, I wish it were.  The story would make a ton more sense to me that way.


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#2 Lee-m

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 12:13

In the credits it lists him as Manny Chavez/Cortez in DF (or at least I think it does, its been a while).



#3 WorldsReunited

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 14:00

I'm replaying TLJ, and have just gotten through the part of Chapter 2 where Westhouse tells April his story about traveling to India, then Tibet, then across the Divide.  He describes Manny Chavez, who helped him, as tall, dark, cryptic, and "smokes like a chimney."  And April agrees, except for the smoking part.

 

And you know what I thought then?  What I would like to be true (but which is, I think, impossible) is that Manny Chavez is not, in fact, Cortez, but is in reality a different form for Jacob McAllen, the Green Kin.  'Cause in light of Dreamfall, Chavez is a super jerk - basically, setting Brian up to experience something horrifying (and likely, condemning him to possession by the Undreaming, and all the nastiness that's tied to) - and that seems out of character for the Red Kin.  The Red is probably the Kin who helped set up the Sentinel, and Cortez in TLJ seems pretty concerned with preserving the status quo.  So sowing the seeds of destruction through Brian seems really out of keeping with his actions in TLJ.

 

You know who it would be in character for?  The Green Kin - McAllen, using the same human face as the Red, but different mannerisms -- like maybe smoking, and having a creepier voice?

 

I know it's not the case, and that Chavez = Cortez, but boy, I wish it were.  The story would make a ton more sense to me that way.

 

Chavez honestly just is Cortez, but I think we will probably have to look at his action in Dreamfall (which were BEFORE TLJ obviously) in a different light during Chapters. I am sure he had a very good reasons for doing all of this. ;)



#4 Ceridwen

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 18:43

It seems I need to replay TLJ again because I thought that Brian Westhouse travelled across the Divide simply out of desire to sate his own curiosity and wanderlust and that Manny Chavez/Cortez didn't have anything to do with making him go there. I thought Brian said as much in the dialogue between him and April as well, but then it has been a while since I played the game and if you've just played it and heard the dialogue I'd certainly listen to you there. I thought that Westhouse was alone at the monastery after Chavez had saved his life in Tibet before he crossed the Divide though. But Brian must have learned about it somehow after all.


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#5 AstralTraveller

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 20:19

I know it's not the case, and that Chavez = Cortez, but boy, I wish it were.  The story would make a ton more sense to me that way.

 

I like this theory very much, especially as such subtle, indirect moves by the Kin indviduals would add another interesting layer to the story.

But TBH I like it the current way, as well - while Cortez is fighting for the "right" cause, he's not necessarily always a very nice guy. It adds a bit more depth to the character.


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#6 Lee-m

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 22:05

It seems I need to replay TLJ again because I thought that Brian Westhouse travelled across the Divide simply out of desire to sate his own curiosity...

We'll he did, or he thinks it was all his own decision.So your not wrong to think that based on the conversations between April and Westhouse.

Westhouse was exploring in tibet were by 'chance', he meets cortez and learns about arcadia, and wishes to go explore. The monks seem to require somone who is 'open'. It would seem cortez and the monks are working together on some plan. Its been a while, but I think thats how it works lol :)



#7 Ringtail

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 01:29

We'll he did, or he thinks it was all his own decision.So your not wrong to think that based on the conversations between April and Westhouse.

Westhouse was exploring in tibet were by 'chance', he meets cortez and learns about arcadia, and wishes to go explore. The monks seem to require somone who is 'open'. It would seem cortez and the monks are working together on some plan. Its been a while, but I think thats how it works lol :)

 

And don't forget that, in the post-credits scene in Dreamfall, Westhouse was just about dead in a snowdrift before Chavez pulled him out.  That strongly implies that Chavez wanted Westhouse to make the crossing, including the unpleasantness with the Undreaming.



#8 WorldsReunited

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 10:05

And don't forget that, in the post-credits scene in Dreamfall, Westhouse was just about dead in a snowdrift before Chavez pulled him out.  That strongly implies that Chavez wanted Westhouse to make the crossing, including the unpleasantness with the Undreaming.

 

This adds up with what Brian said about trying to stay out of the affairs of the Kin these days in TLJ. Though he does seem to have forgiven Cortez already by the time April visits him because he isn't negative about him at all and besides whatever reason Manny had, he DID save Brian's life.  ;)



#9 Kazoo

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 22:56

I was under the impression that Cortez knew Westhouse.  That is.. didn't he mention him at some point?  I just can't remember.

 

If he did, doesn't that promote the idea that it really was Cortez that saved Westhouse?


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#10 Lee-m

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 23:28

I was under the impression that Cortez knew Westhouse.  That is.. didn't he mention him at some point?  I just can't remember.

 

If he did, doesn't that promote the idea that it really was Cortez that saved Westhouse?

Cortez confirms he knows Westhouse when April returns from Arcadia the first time. This is how she knows he has been alive for a long time, or at least be sure its him westhouse and tobias know of.



#11 khh

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 08:42

Cortez confirms he knows Westhouse when April returns from Arcadia the first time. This is how she knows he has been alive for a long time, or at least be sure its him westhouse and tobias know of.

Not to mention that Cortez told April to find Westhouse in the first place when she wanted to go back, and Westhouse had Cortez' pocket watch (heart).


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#12 Silvirish4ever

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 10:20

Not to mention that Cortez told April to find Westhouse in the first place when she wanted to go back, and Westhouse had Cortez' pocket watch (heart).

 

I never really got why people suppose the clock is his heart. Yes, I know that the thing stops ticking when Cortez falls down that building, and that it's a very dramatic moment, but the clock had been NOT ticking for, I don't know, centuries? And we could see that Cortez was alive and kicking. I wonder if it has some other meaning.


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#13 Lee-m

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 12:36

Not to mention that Cortez told April to find Westhouse in the first place when she wanted to go back, and Westhouse had Cortez' pocket watch (heart).

April is unsure (or at least you as a player should be) that Manny is Cortez up until April returns. I really didn't make that point well in my last post lol, It was late ;)



#14 khh

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 13:22

I never really got why people suppose the clock is his heart. Yes, I know that the thing stops ticking when Cortez falls down that building, and that it's a very dramatic moment, but the clock had been NOT ticking for, I don't know, centuries? And we could see that Cortez was alive and kicking. I wonder if it has some other meaning.

When Westhouse gives April the watch he says:
Brian Westhouse : He [Manny Chavez] said that when his heart started beating again, he would know. It would be like a message in morse code. A beacon. The damn watch never worked, and the winding mechanism is broken, so it's probably not worth much. You're welcome to it, if it's any help.

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Every sorrow she can mend.
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Does it simply overwhelm.


#15 Silvirish4ever

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 14:16

When Westhouse gives April the watch he says:
Brian Westhouse : He [Manny Chavez] said that when his heart started beating again, he would know. It would be like a message in morse code. A beacon. The damn watch never worked, and the winding mechanism is broken, so it's probably not worth much. You're welcome to it, if it's any help.

 

Thanks, totally blocked that out. Gee, that  makes me even more confused. "When his heart started beating again, he would know"? Whose heart, Cortez's? Really? Well obviously he would know, what with being ALIVE and all (lol) - is it me, or does that not make any sense?

 

Also, like I said, we have seen him alive before the clock started ticking. But I guess that could be due to a time disturbance and/or difference between Stark and Arcadia? It would make sense for Cortez to send April through the divide then, since he knew for a fact that she would figure out how to wind up the clock to come back...


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#16 Dmm

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 14:47

Gee, that  makes me even more confused. "When his heart started beating again, he would know"? Whose heart, Cortez's? Really? Well obviously he would know, what with being ALIVE and all (lol) - is it me, or does that not make any sense?

 

Doesn't make sense to me either. There has to be a deeper meaning to a watch being Cortez's heart. Maybe, he through magic connected his heart to the watch so when the watch started working again he would know. This may also explain why Cortez needed  Westhouse to go to Arcadia, the watch would be needed sometime in the future. Cortez just took advantage of Westhouse's desire to explore the unknown. We know that Brian got stuck in the storytime and didn't go straight through to Arcadia and thus was delayed almost 300 years. Cortez probably knew Brian would get 'stuck' between the worlds and that would allow the watch to be at that point in time where it would be needed most.


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#17 khh

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 15:31

I'm pretty sure the pocket watch isn't literally his heart, but some sort of metaphor.


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April Ryan is my friend,
Every sorrow she can mend.
When I visit her dark realm,
Does it simply overwhelm.


#18 Lee-m

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 17:12

What happens to that watch ? do you just have it in your inventory right until the end of the game? right after that you goto the morning star, do they take it off April then ?

I think im gonna have to play it over again, and I played it twice last year.... I gotta stop playing it while drinking beer.



#19 MisterMetropolis

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 05:19

My interpretation was that Cortez put a little bit of his power into the pocketwatch so that when he felt it come into existence again (in like 2185), he would know Brian had found his way to Arcadia. And when April used it, his power helped her activate her Shifting abilities, but when he died, it was no longer in the watch and it stopped working altogether.


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#20 Constanse

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 09:30

I agree with khh, about it being a metaphor. I never gave it much thought, as to me it seemed obvious it wasn't literally his heart. But then, do the kin have hearts like we do? ;)
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