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Will you ever tell us why Magnus and Etta were on the run, and what happens to them?


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#1 bird

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 13:14

?



#2 Al Dhi

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 13:32

I don't think we'll ever get the specifics, but broadly speaking I was under the impression (don't know if this is specifically stated in the game) that Magnus was a Starkian, while Etta was clearly a Dolmari from Arkadia. They were forced to build the House of All Worlds, a place between the two worlds, to beget Saga, a child that should have never existed while the worlds were still seperated. Who knows what happened when Etta left their estate. Saga meanwhile was prepped up to reunite the twin worlds in the War of the Balance by these mysterious mentors she keeps mentioning like "Uncle Gallath".



#3 magic88889

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 14:31

Um, Etta is not Dolamri.  Dolmari are blue, like Likho.  Etta is green with twinkling sparkles.  And she is from Midgard, not Arkadia (although I suppose that Midgard could be somewhere in Arkadia, I always had the impression that it was it's own world).



#4 bird

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 15:10

Um, why did we have dreamfall chapters if the worlds were going to unite anyway? I mean, so, like, the prophet and zoe's mom weren't bad? I mean, WTF? I know that they united because you are told about it when you look at the globe, but, what was the point?



#5 Al Dhi

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 17:29

Um, Etta is not Dolamri.

 

She does look pretty different, now that you mention it...

If Etta is not from Arkadia, this just messes up my entire grasp of the HoAW scenes. And it doesn't help the fact that Saga seems to be just a gigantic plot device with no real substance. How are Magnus and Etta even related to anything then? :huh:

 

 

Um, why did we have dreamfall chapters if the worlds were going to unite anyway?

 

This is something I didn't understand either. All I got was that Westhouse's attempt at reuniting the twin worlds was somehow done too early and for the wrong intentions. I really didn't think too much about it, because I realised that the more I thought about Dreamfall Chapters in the context of the other two games, the less sense they all made.

I know that Ragnar said multiple times that DFC had become "exactly the game he set out to make" in 2012, but to be frank, I don't believe that. I think a lot of important or semi-important story beats got dropped along the way. Like the whole Madame Nyx investigation - this was touted as one of the major plot threads for Zoe during the Kickstarter campaign but all that's left of her in the game is the exterior of her "House of Dreams" in Propast.



#6 Lee-m

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 18:38

She does look pretty different, now that you mention it...

Originally I thought Etta was a Dolamri from a different region we just hadn't seen before, plus there was all that 'by the stars' stuff in the house and dialog. But Ragnar replied to me saying she wasnt. So thats that.
 

How are Magnus and Etta even related to anything then? :huh:

 
There just isn't enough answers. Its 1990s x-files type story telling, except we are in 2018 now.  
But most of these questions are ones people might ask if they hadn't played all 3 games. Its really worth playing them all in order, gives you some perspective. The worlds were always going to be reunited, it was just a question of when that time was right.


Most likely Saga is now required... kinda like a default plan B of the White, incase/when all the Kin got killed to sort the mess out, and make sure reunification of the two worlds still happened on schedule.
It would seem Cortez and Brian had some sort of plan. But Westhouse didnt follow it, or wasnt able to, which caused a diversion in events. Leading to McAllens plan, and the death of both of them. After that the original plan (whatever it was) was screwed.

#7 magic88889

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 02:14

She does look pretty different, now that you mention it...

If Etta is not from Arkadia, this just messes up my entire grasp of the HoAW scenes. And it doesn't help the fact that Saga seems to be just a gigantic plot device with no real substance. How are Magnus and Etta even related to anything then? :huh:

 

The exact nature of the HoAW is a bit of a mystery.  There are hints and suggestions provided, but no concrete answers.  As far as I can tell, Storytime contains more than just the Twin Worlds.  There are other Stories told there, other worlds.  I believe that Midgard (old Norse Mythology for Earth, or the human realm) is one such world.  How Etta and Magnus (who looks like he's from 1950's Stark) met, I have no idea.

The House, is either in Storytime or connected to it in some way.  It is a part of all worlds and none, hence the name.  At any time, you could walk out the door and find yourself in any world.  Which makes walking out the door a bit of a crapshoot, and potentially a one-way trip (hence the conflict between Etta and Magnus, and his reluctance to let Saga leave).  We DO know that the House is separate from the Twin Worlds, and lives in it's own timestream. 

 

Saga is connected to everything because she is April reborn (April is somehow one of the Kin after all.  Yet another thing that will probably never be explained).  Saga's connection to her, and the rest of the series is a whole lot stronger if you've played the first game. 



#8 Lee-m

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 03:29

How Etta and Magnus (who looks like he's from 1950's Stark) met, I have no idea.

That might not be entirely true if you take the photo(painting?) on the living room wall as true with in the scope of the game. From that you can say Etta visited 1950s stark or Magnus and Etta come from a time after reunification and Etta and he Met at that time. Timetravel is possible in a way within the HoAW realm.

#9 Al Dhi

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 04:11

It would seem Cortez and Brian had some sort of plan. But Westhouse didnt follow it, or wasnt able to, which caused a diversion in events. Leading to McAllens plan, and the death of both of them. After that the original plan (whatever it was) was screwed.

 

You're right in so many regards, I don't really remember the whole McAllen thing. I've wanted to replay the trilogy for a while now, but I've been waiting for my physical copy of DFC to arrive first.

 

 

As far as I can tell, Storytime contains more than just the Twin Worlds.  There are other Stories told there, other worlds.

 

Sure, that's confirmed in the final scene with Saga as the elder Lady Alvane. It's just that I had it all beautifully mapped out in my mind that Magnus & Etta birthing offspring was both a representation and a herald of Stark & Arkadia reuniting. It would have made so much sense, and in a poetic way at that. It would have even explained why Saga was such an all-knowing superhuman Deus ex Machina (I thought that this was a byproduct of "the two worlds" being united in her spirit, the duality resolved, the divide between magic/chaos and logic/order bridged, and so on). I guess I'm just disappointed that the basis of this theory has just evaporated into "they're random people from random places in the multiverse who randomly came together to have a child in a house between worlds". Because that's all the game gives us.  :mellow:

 

 

Saga is connected to everything because she is April reborn.

 

Since one of my outlandish theories was just crushed, why not go for another one: What if April and Saga are connected in more than just one way?

 

We know from the ending that Saga can live lifes in all kinds of universes by following "songlines". We also know that Saga made her first journey at around four years old into a songline that started where April's story in the original TLJ started and ended where it ended (represented by the drawings you have to arrange). Is it then not safe to assume that Saga didn't just remember a past life as April, but actually projected herself into April's life when she was at art college in Venice? And that April could only be such an influential person to Stark and Arkadia (a "Wave" as the Dark People called her) because she was, for lack of a better term, possessed by Saga? And that this influence ceased when Saga left her at the end of TLJ?

 

Because in Dreamfall April seems to have lost everything that once made her special. She's depressed, her entire ark in the story of Dreamfall is literally her searching for an ark in the story of Dreamfall, the Guardian tells her (just looked it up on YouTube) that she plays "no role" in this narrative anymore, the Dark People don't recognize her as a Wave any longer, and we finally learn that she had to die in order to be reborn as Saga.

 

This would fit pretty nicely into the whole "time is a circle/spiral" thing that's brought up by Saga at the end, as it would mean in a sense that April had to die in order for Saga to be born in order for April to be born. And on it goes. It would also explain how both April and Saga were related to the White Dragon: In TLJ April is called "daughter" by the White Dragon, in Dreamfall she's called "sister in spirit". And in Chapters, Saga is called "sister-daughter" by the spirit of the White Dragon.

 

Oh man, this is derailing fast, isn't it? :D



#10 magic88889

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 05:29

I'm not sure that's how Songlines are supposed to work.  Also, I believe that the traveling that you mention Saga doing is actually a Shift, not the activation of a Songline.  It certainly looks like a Shift. 

 

As for April: The Guardian told the truth.  The Dreamer Cycle is not April's story; it's Zoe's.  That doesn't mean that April doesn't have a part to play in future events, but as far as Zoe, Lux, ect. are concerned, she really doesn't have a part in it.

For her connection to Saga.  The White in the beginning of TLJ called her daughter, but then the White died.  The new White called April sister-daughter in both TLJ and DF.  That she calls Saga as a baby the exact same thing is pretty telling. 

Abnaxus even alludes to April being one of the Kin (the Dragon of Spring).  Which all leads us to conclude that April is Kin.  Since one of the defining characteristics of the Kin is that they can be reborn, it makes sense that April would do so.  The moment Saga is born, right at the beginning of DFC, we see a Shift.  Another clue as April is the only Shifter we know.  

 

There's also a clue in the title of the first Chapter: Reborn. 

 

Also, if you want to get into prophecy.  April was supposed to unite the Twin Words.  How can she do that if she's dead?  Because she lives on as Saga.

 

From a narrative perspective, it still feeds into the time is a circle thing you mentioned.  Saga was April in an past incarnation.  As April, she met Saga (or Lady Alvane as we knew her then), just as her journey was beginning.  And here she is, at the end of her journey, having accomplished everything that was prophesied, meeting that young April, completing the cycle.  For me, seeing that cycle complete was one of the best moments of the entire series.

 

There are other clues and hints here and there, but I don't think at this point it's even a question anymore.  April died and was reborn as Saga.

 

 

edit: I hope some of that made sense.  It's late and I'm tired.  Probably shoudln't be posting.  Oh well....


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#11 Lee-m

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 11:56

I'm not sure that's how Songlines are supposed to work.

Songlines are one of the biggest bits of nonsense made up stuff in the game. We never see any of that in use in anyway.

Since one of the defining characteristics of the Kin is that they can be reborn

Gonna take a slight issue with this ;) We don't know if all of the kin have that power, just the white. Or why would westhouse bother killing them ? they would just come back and get you !

April/Saga is obviously related to the White and is kin. Thus gets this rebirth power in a way.

#12 Al Dhi

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 12:43

There are other clues and hints here and there, but I don't think at this point it's even a question anymore.  April died and was reborn as Saga.

 

I think there's a misunderstanding here. I do think that Saga is April reborn. But I also think that Saga is the creator of who April was in TLJ. She remembers being April in a past life by drawing pictures of her journey and she enters her life as April by arranging these pictures and opening a portal. So she's both April's past and future. Again, time is a circle ;) . And since the HoAW exists outside of time anyway I don't really see a problem with that.

It was kind of the first thing that popped into my mind when I was playing the Saga interlude with the drawings, so I've stuck with it. Also because it explains why April is a Wave in TLJ but not a Wave anymore in Dreamfall - I always wondered what caused that. Alas, I was jumping to conclusions with Magnus and Etta, so maybe this is just nonsense as well.

 

 

I'm not sure that's how Songlines are supposed to work.  Also, I believe that the traveling that you mention Saga doing is actually a Shift, not the activation of a Songline.  It certainly looks like a Shift.

 

I was initially gonna write "shift" instead of songline as well. Whether one or the other, it doesn't really mess with the core idea, I think. Like Lee-m said, songlines came completely out of nowhere in Book Five anyway...

 

 

As for April: The Guardian told the truth.  The Dreamer Cycle is not April's story; it's Zoe's.  That doesn't mean that April doesn't have a part to play in future events, but as far as Zoe, Lux, ect. are concerned, she really doesn't have a part in it.

 

Now this is something I can't get behind. I believe that Dreamfall is very clear in telling us that April's story is over. Finished. No role, no wave, no influence. But also no responsibility. April herself spends the entirety of the game being depressed about that fact. She doesn't want to be "free" as the Guardian calls it, she wants to move things, to elicit change, but she cannot do that in this life anymore. All that's left for her is to die in the swamp village so that Saga can be born - and to be an inspiring encounter to Kian which arguably leads him to question his loyalty and eventually become a rebel.



#13 Lee-m

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 12:57

Now this is something I can't get behind. I believe that Dreamfall is very clear in telling us that April's story is over. Finished. No role, no wave, no influence. But also no responsibility.

As far as I remember thats not really true. He tells her she is still important and has a role to play, but she is not the one who will set things right this time.

But I do kinda like this idea that Saga inhabits April for a time then leaves. It fits quite well. But im not sure thats the way it is.

I think the white is dead (for realz), killed by westhouse. But an aspect of the white was in April. When she dies you see it return to the HoAW, and saga is born. Her death is what was required for her to resume her role and not be April anymore.
Shifts are practical things.. you really move between worlds. So Saga physically shifts via the drawings and becomes April. Gets killed, the White aspect of her returns to the HoAW..gets reborn as saga. I think its that simple.

When you see the 'ghost' of the white talking to baby saga, you are seeing the aspect of the white thats living inside her. She pretty much tell you that straight up.
And the circle works out just fine, even if you don't see April show up at the end to talk to old Saga. Thats a bit of a bonus.
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#14 Al Dhi

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 13:36

Here's what the Guardian has to say about the matter of April's future:

 

  1. (When asked directly:) "I know this: Your role in these events has come to an end. You are not the one who will set things right this time."
  2. (After a small talk about the Dreaming:) "I'm sorry. I don't know any more than that. But you don't have to carry the burden on your shoulders this time around, April. You're free. Go live your life. Let the past go."
  3. (When April says that it's unfair for him to talk like that, as he has a clear purpose in life:) "We all do, April. You just haven't found yours yet. But this isn't it. Let it go."

 

During this conversation the Guardian repeatedly emphasizes that he does not know anything about the current events, which are all related to the Dreaming and not the Balance. To me, this conversation always read like: "I have no idea what's going on right now, but you don't have anything to do with it. So do something else."

 

To illustrate it more drastically: April is like a retired workaholic being told by her former colleague that she should go play some golf or learn how to paint pastures, lakes and mountains. Sure, he doesn't specifically tell her that she has no purpose anymore, he just assumes that she needs to find hers elsewhere, or better yet "let it go" and "be free". It's obviously not what April wants to hear.

 

Now keep this verbage (let it go and be free) in mind, because here's what April's echo tells Zoe in Book Five concerning her death:

 

Zoe: "What was that whole thing about, "find her, save her"? I found you but I didn't save you. I didn't save anyone."

April: "You did."

Zoe: "How?"

April: "I was trapped. You freed me."

Zoe: "You died."

April: "And was reborn."

 

In short, I'm not letting go of this one. April's purpose in Dreamfall is to die. The end. :P



#15 Lee-m

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 13:47

Actually Gordon wasn't quite as forthcoming with the details as I remembered. So fair enough on that one. But im sure there is some dialog choices where he tells her she is still needed and the cosmos didnt done with her yet... or maybe its just my memory playing up.
 

In short, I'm not letting go of this one. April's purpose in Dreamfall is to die. The end. :P

I think April would have been free to live her life out, until the Kin started being killed (which starts in TLJ), at that point she needed to go and be reborn, and thats what starts off that Arc in Dreamfall.

#16 bird

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 18:46

SPOILERS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is pretty obvious that the game was rushed and not finished. The hair of Roman and Balsay make this obvious. The scenes where Vamon kills Hami and when old town sets out the bombs shows this well too.



#17 Lee-m

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 18:54

It is pretty obvious that the game was rushed and not finished.

If you think that, you must not have a good sense of time. At the end of the day it was a low budget game, or not at all. And I think they clearly went beyond that budget. Of all the issues a big fan of the game can have, that cannot be one.
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#18 Vainamoinen

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 18:57

In short, I'm not letting go of this one. April's purpose in Dreamfall is to die. The end. :P


Yup. That was the explanation they gave us. And to kill her was to save her.

* puts Indiana Jones hat on your head *

You don't have to like it.

I certainly don't. :unsure:


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Hey Ubisoft, you can keep your "seamless vast online GTA in space" to yourselves. Signed, one of the greatest Beyond Good & Evil fans alive.


#19 MisterMetropolis

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 22:54

I think Etta is from a world called Midgard from Norse mythology, and Midgardians have the means to travel the multiverse through songlines. So she went to 1950s Lettoch and met Magnus, they built the House of All Worlds and that was really all there was to it.

 

I think there's a misunderstanding here. I do think that Saga is April reborn. But I also think that Saga is the creator of who April was in TLJ. She remembers being April in a past life by drawing pictures of her journey and she enters her life as April by arranging these pictures and opening a portal. So she's both April's past and future. Again, time is a circle ;) . And since the HoAW exists outside of time anyway I don't really see a problem with that.

It was kind of the first thing that popped into my mind when I was playing the Saga interlude with the drawings, so I've stuck with it. Also because it explains why April is a Wave in TLJ but not a Wave anymore in Dreamfall - I always wondered what caused that. Alas, I was jumping to conclusions with Magnus and Etta, so maybe this is just nonsense as well.

 

You're thinking way too hard about this. April lived, died and reincarnated as Saga. The shift when Saga was born was the White Dragon following her. Saga drew some memories of her life as April, and then she opened a random songline. That scene was just showing us her leaving the house for the first time.

 

The sister-daughter connection is more of a soul thing than a biological thing, although I do think April was also supposed to be the Mother's biological daughter. But you can be a soul sister and a soul daughter at the same time.

 

One thing that interests me that I wish had been elaborated on was Saga saying "Some day, the girl will become her mamma." I wonder if this means that after Saga's life, she'll reincarnate as the Mother, give birth to her own past life as April, become the Sister (which I guess is a thing the Kin can do, extend their lives by living as their offspring), die and then hang around herself as Saga.


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"But even if we don't reach that lofty goal this time around, we hope to some day still be able to tell this story. April's story, all of it. All that remains of it. Because it needs to be told. And you all deserve to hear it. And we would love to share it with you." - RTG, March 1, 2013

 

"Even if we don't get to $2 million, we will still look into ways of making The Longest Journey Home a reality...some day. It's a story we all want to tell, and we won't let it die.- RTG, March 9, 2013


#20 Lee-m

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 16:48

So she went to 1950s Lettoch and met Magnus

Is that mentioned anywhere ? I must have missed or just forgotten that. Was it one of the views out of the window in the HoAW?




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