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TLJ & DF Unresolved Questions + Some Theories


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#41 wandrew

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 08:29

Well, it's not so much of an explanation as it is an assumption or speculation. But you're welcome!

#42 skadet

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 14:45

So I've just finished watching a playthrough of Dreamfall on YouTube to refresh my mind before DFC, and now I feel like I can finally think about things.

I have never followed any threads with theories and stuff before, because I've only played that game once, many years ago.. so the stuff I have to say has probably been said before, but since I'm new to thinking about this, I'll just say it and let you guys tell me if it's news to you or not, haha xD It's not very deep either, just small things.

 

First of all, I've read through this thread now, and there are theories about the Undreaming of course.. but what I'm wondering is.. what took so long?

Westhouse was in Tibet in 1933/34 for three months before leaving the monastery by way of monks. Two of them were whispering about unleashing the Undreaming, but does that mean all the monks are in on it? The two stop their convo because "the walls have ears", but is it because Westhouse is in the room or because other monks could possibly hear them?
He then appears in Storytime, where the Vagabond is not pleased to see him, and then the Undreaming jumps him.

Approx. 260 years later, he arrives in Arcadia (when April meets him for the first time in 2209, he tells her he arrived there about fifteen years earlier). When he talks to Zoë on that airship, he indeed says he was unstuck from time.

So did he travel directly from the monastery to Storytime, where the Undreaming got him and then he just.. existed somewhere, unstuck from time for 260 years? (And if so, what was the Undreaming waiting for all those years, and what event caused him to get back on the timeline?)

Or did he go somewhere else where he was stuck (or.. unstuck) all that time, then somehow end up in Storytime, where getting attacked by the Undreaming was somehow what finally allowed him to cross over to Arcadia?

 

Wow, all this thinking about things is exhausting, and I can just feel all the questions building in my brain xD


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#43 toremygg

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 14:46

Wow, all this thinking about things is exhausting, and I can just feel all the questions building in my brain xD

Go channel this into some history reading! :D



#44 skadet

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 15:01

Go channel this into some history reading! :D

 

I will! Very soon. I have to read about Norway in the Middle Ages now, and I'm just very reluctant to do so xD

 

 
Oh! And as for people disappearing during the Collapse vs. when the Divide was created..
Tobias speaks of it (the split) as a fairly calm happening. Yes, families were torn apart and friends never seen again, but he uses the term "ushered". The way I think of it, the Divide was created on purpose and so they had time to decide who should belong in which world and bring them there safely.
The Collapse was everything but a controlled event, so anyone who resided in the wrong world would be snapped towards their right one - but since they weren't guided there safely, maybe they got stuck between worlds somewhere (perhaps in Storytime, where Zoë has to help them?). That way, people disappeared from Stark, but never showed up all confused in Arcadia.
 
Ok, I'll get back to the Middle Ages now. xD

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#45 magic88889

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 16:46

So I've just finished watching a playthrough of Dreamfall on YouTube to refresh my mind before DFC, and now I feel like I can finally think about things.

I have never followed any threads with theories and stuff before, because I've only played that game once, many years ago.. so the stuff I have to say has probably been said before, but since I'm new to thinking about this, I'll just say it and let you guys tell me if it's news to you or not, haha xD It's not very deep either, just small things.

 

First of all, I've read through this thread now, and there are theories about the Undreaming of course.. but what I'm wondering is.. what took so long?

Westhouse was in Tibet in 1933/34 for three months before leaving the monastery by way of monks. Two of them were whispering about unleashing the Undreaming, but does that mean all the monks are in on it? The two stop their convo because "the walls have ears", but is it because Westhouse is in the room or because other monks could possibly hear them?
He then appears in Storytime, where the Vagabond is not pleased to see him, and then the Undreaming jumps him.

Approx. 260 years later, he arrives in Arcadia (when April meets him for the first time in 2209, he tells her he arrived there about fifteen years earlier). When he talks to Zoë on that airship, he indeed says he was unstuck from time.

So did he travel directly from the monastery to Storytime, where the Undreaming got him and then he just.. existed somewhere, unstuck from time for 260 years? (And if so, what was the Undreaming waiting for all those years, and what event caused him to get back on the timeline?)

Or did he go somewhere else where he was stuck (or.. unstuck) all that time, then somehow end up in Storytime, where getting attacked by the Undreaming was somehow what finally allowed him to cross over to Arcadia?

 

Wow, all this thinking about things is exhausting, and I can just feel all the questions building in my brain xD

 

Who is to say that time runs at the same rate in Storytime as in the 'real' world?  Perhaps time has very little meaning there if all stories and realities are given birth there.  Plus, not knowing exactly what the undreaming is makes it kind of hard to determine how long it might take to accomplish its goals.  We really only know it's name, and that it looks kind of like the chaos vortex from TLJ. 

 

I think we have too little information here to really make any kind of intelligent decisions.  I expect that we will find out more next week,.


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#46 RoyMartin

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Posted 17 October 2014 - 13:25

Okay, I just spent WAY too much time in this thread, considering I should be working. But it was such a great read, I couldn't stop.

 

Just finished playing through all of Dreamfall yesterday, for the first time since 2006. So much stuff I had forgotten! I love how rich, complicated and huge this story is. I can't wait to get some answers and probably thousands more questions this Tuesday. Looking forward to reading your speculations in between DFC episodes, and maybe join in.

 

I have nothing new to add to this thread, unfortunately, your knowledge is way way better than mine. But keep debating :P



#47 Barentity

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 17:20

Thank you for posting the list of questions! The discussion is now primed for detonation when DFC is released, and we have a handy checklist to tick off as we play the game. If there are 10 things left unchecked by the end of it, we can sue, right? :P

 

 This only works to explain what was "seen" if the time period known as the "collapse" is interpreted loosely. Maybe characters are throwing around the term fairly inexactly, but the fact of the matter is that Charlie definitely refers to strange things seen "during" the collapse and he also definitely says April disappeared "just days" before that time. In other words, the collapse is defined as a period of time (a few days) *after* the events of TLJ - not anything we were privy to. If the collapse was indeed defined by magical things bleeding into Stark, then why not include the days before April vanished as part of the collapse as well? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying the main canonical in-game "explanations" of the collapse do not support this view!

 

I'm not sure if there's a contradiction here, is there? The Collapse presumably refers to an economic collapse due to various kinds of technology ceasing to work. But the "leaking" of things between worlds probably happened during this period as well while Gordon was getting his bearings and sorting things out.

 

Emma: Those of us who saw it... You don't forget something like that. But there were things happening even before the Collapse, strange things, like...like dreams leaking through into the waking world.

 

I think this suggests that there's some similarity between what happened during the Collapse and the things that were happening just before it. But what defines the Collapse is the fact that society kind of almost fell apart as well.


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#48 CosmicD

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Posted 18 October 2014 - 18:28

At the end of dreamfall Zoë's father says "she's fading away". Faith actually dies but her conciousness stays behind in dreamnet, Zoë fades away but is she like fading away a whole year while she stays in the storytime ? I really hope all this meta becomes a bit clear in dfc :).

Is faith really gone or is she in the story time as well ?

Is Reza's container (body) actually running around with another soul ? Does Zoë save him from a nightmare loop ? Damn' so many questions :)



#49 Sadge

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 22:29

I'm sure this is obvious or has been said before, but I've always wondered whether it was actually the White Lady who gave Faith that last update (Zoe saved April, etc).  There was that Not-Reza at the end of game and her attacker was probably Westhouse or a Not-Westhouse.  If it was a Not-Westhouse, then it could have turned into a Not-White Lady after and gave false information to Faith.  The attack on the White Lady happens between April's apparent death and Zoe meeting Faith, so it's not clear (to me anyway) whether the White Lady's visit happens before or after she was attacked.  Although, I suppose this is moot if April reemerges as the new White



#50 Eveolene

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:01

A couple of points to consider:

 

#3 - How did Brian get his bicycle and gun (among other things, perhaps), to Arcadia, if they were not shown going with him across the divide in DF? Is this just a logistical error?

 

Brian says, on seeing April's Shift, that he hasn't seen one for a long time. Since he did not travel via Shift himself, it has to be assumed that he has met other Shifters. It's very possible that other Shifters with more time to spend faffing about in both worlds may have brought various items through from Stark. Remember that the cups merchant won the calculator from an unknown someone "claiming to be from Stark". Brian could not possibly have brought that calculator with him, regardless of Dreamfall, since that form of handheld calculator did not exist in 1933.

 
#54 - Why can’t April shift (without help)?
 
This is explained through dialogue with Cortez after April's first Shift, paired with Gordon's comments about dreams in Dreamfall. Cortez explains to April that in order to Shift, one must pass through dreams. If dreams are passing from Stark to Arcadia but not Arcadia to Stark, then Shifting from Arcadia to Stark is impossible. Think of it like this:
 
Arcadia =>=>=|The Dreaming|=>=>=> Stark
Stark     =>=>=The Dreaming=>=>=>   Arcadia
 
The | are barriers of some description. This does not explain why dreams are not passing from Arcadia to Stark, only why April cannot physically Shift from one to the other. Theoretically, if she were in Stark, she could Shift to Arcadia, but would be unable to return.

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#51 Lee-m

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:17

^April isnt a dream. There is nothing explicitly stopping a shifter from moving through there. At least not with the level of detail we have been given.

As with all of the theories its a good one, and I like it. But not with out its problems. Hopefully we'll get a few answers starting today :)

#52 Eveolene

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:35

As I said, Cortez states that you have to travel through dreams to Shift:

 

X7L8eVF.jpg

 

To clarify, the blockage in dreams flowing from Arcadia to Stark applies to April Shifting as well, if what Cortez says about Shifting is true.


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#53 Lee-m

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:42

The assumption that having to shift though the world of dreams(the storytime) means April follows the flow of dreams, is quite a big one. And the only point I have had an issue with all these years. As I pointed out, April isnt a dream, I see no reason she cant pass through the story time any way she pleases as a physical person.

It may very well turn out to be that way, and its a much cooler explanation than just having lost faith, but right now, I have a issue with it (and have had for years).

But I have at least one issue with every theory, including the white lady being lady Alvane :)

#54 Eveolene

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:52

But that same logic can be turned around. How can the path be blocked for something intangible, such as dreams, but open to something tangible and physical, such as a human? I'm not sure this was intended to be so complex.


"This story, like all good stories, begins where it ends, in a tower, in a realm that is no more." - Lady Alvane

 

"I will stop doing this thing that I love and makes me feel happy and fulfilled to follow you to the next stop on our pointless, depressing journey." - Shitbot

 

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#55 Lee-m

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:56

But that same logic can be turned around. How can the path be blocked for something intangible, such as dreams, but open to something tangible and physical, such as a human? I'm not sure this was intended to be so complex.

I dont think it is blocked. Dreams are being captured and stored below the tower ? For me there is nothing to suggest an actual blockage. It just requires a bit more information for me. Which hopefully we will get.

#56 toremygg

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:01

I believe there are very strong indications that the flow is only going one way. No time to post confirmation now, though. Supposedly working.


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#57 Lee-m

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:04

I believe there are very strong indications that the flow is only going one way.

That is what is happening. We are directly told that by Gordon (and I take it he is being truthful).

#58 toremygg

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:07

And that' coupled with Shifting being a dream mechanic (so to speak), is a good explanation why Shifting isn't working. I don't really see what you have against it. ;)



#59 Lee-m

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:13

Shifting being a dream mechanic (so to speak)

So to speak ? so your not sure ;) April opens a physical door and physically walks thought it. Its a bit of a leap to say other peoples dreams not coming in from the other direction should stop her in any way.

I like the theory, and its the one I would pick given the choice, but for me I'd like an explanation as to my points above.

#60 toremygg

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:15

So to speak ? so your not sure ;) April opens a physical door and physically walks thought it.

I like the theory, and its the one I would pick given the choice, but for me I'd like an explanation as to my points above.

Apart from Cortez, one of the Kin and as such in the know, has confirmed it? No.


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