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TLJ & DF Unresolved Questions + Some Theories


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#21 Dmm

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 14:51

Ooh, I have an Unresolved Question: How did April get back to the Journeyman from the Dream Chamber?

 

She went down to the "lake/river" after leaving the chamber and used the boat left behind by the prophet to cross it. :unsure: Actually, I have no idea and we will probably never know.



#22 CosmicD

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 17:55

when I was fiddling with 4k DSR in dreamfall, I noticed the white one saying she's all alone. But in the first reveal trailer from DLC she directs herself to Zoë again and saying "where have you gone to dreamer, the skygod has been searching for you".. so it mean she started comunicating with eachother again ?



#23 Pawlo_86

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 18:02

when I was fiddling with 4k DSR in dreamfall, I noticed the white one saying she's all alone. But in the first reveal trailer from DLC she directs herself to Zoë again and saying "where have you gone to dreamer, the skygod has been searching for you".. so it mean she started comunicating with eachother again ?

 

We don't know for sure that female voice from Chapters First Trailer was White Kin. I think that it was she but it is unclear. Sky God can be Blue Kin.


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#24 Ringtail

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 19:47

Yeah, it's never been confirmed that the English-accented voice in those trailers was the young White Kin -- I agree it sounds like the same actress, though.

#25 wandrew

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 00:39

Wasn't the White Irish-accented?


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#26 Pawlo_86

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 07:20

The only person in Dreamfall who named Zoe as Dreamer besides Vagabond was White Kin. So that voice can be White Kin. I wonder why Blue Kin needs Zoe's help? We know from TLJ that Blue Kin also is somekind of dreamer because he likes to sleep much.


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#27 CosmicD

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 07:34

Yeah, I just assumed it was her because it's the same voice, but there's a few caveats, is she dead after that "attack" the last time we see her ? And she never really called zoë "dreamer" unless... she's not dead and got a few more insights in the mean while and therefor sees the blue one again and calls her out on the same "channel" Zoë is talking to us with. I mean if Zoë is in a coma she's always talking trough the fourth wall to us, maybe the white one is doing that as well :P Maybe we are "the story time" who can pull a few strings.. hehe



#28 tummy ooh aah

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 23:01

I've been looking around a bit and haven't found anything about people vanishing.

If there were indeed vanishings, my guess would be that at the moment of the restoration of the Balance, the worlds were close to merging again. Some entire parts of Arcadia were leaked into Stark. The restoration seperated both worlds properly once again, and people in the leaks were moved.

Humans being non magical creatures, being shifted from one world to another would have little consequences.

But as you said, it was mentionned nowhere that Stark people were found in Arcadia.

 

During the conversation with Emma and Charlie there's this:

 

 

Emma: April was gone. Vanished. If it hadn't been for the things she'd told us, I would have simply believed that she was another victim of the Collapse.

 

 

And if you speak to one of the homeless men in Venice he'll mention his wife and child disappearing during the Collapse.

 

Also, regarding "seeing things" during the Collapse, there's this line in the same conversation:

 

 

Charlie: This is where it gets complicated. She spoke about another world. A sort of...parallel magical dimension. We didn't believe--

 

Emma: You didn't believe her, Charlie. I never doubted her.

 

Charlie: Fine. I didn't believe her. I'm still not sure I do, despite the things I saw during the Collapse.

 

 

Which seems to imply that there were magical things glimpsed during this strange time, which doesn't jive with things simply being reset to their "proper places".

 

 

As for the science part, the magical phenomena may have been interpreted in a scientific maner. By that, I mean that scientists noticed that for some obscure reason, an object is capable of defying laws of gravity. From those observations, engineers could establish some usage. In the 200 last years that Adrian had spent as the guardian, the balance was gradually failing. Allowing a bit of chaos in the order and probably vice-versa.

 

RE: magic supporting scientific principles like anti-gravity - my main problem with this is accepting that the raw element/property/whatever of "magic" obeys natural laws and works in consistent, logical ways. This is not something I'm entirely willing to accept, given the equation we've been taught that magic= chaos. But on the other hand alchemists create magical potions which presumably work the same way each time with the same ingredients. So I don't know. I read that thread you linked to (thanks for that!) and I actually prefer one of the theories in there by LogicalDreamer (third page), even if it is a little rough:

 

 

As for the collapse I always thought it made sense, throughout TLJ Cortez tells you that chaos is spreading throughout Arcadia and will eventually make its way to Stark. Stark resists it for longer because of its logic disposition, however, normally any excess of logic or chaos I would assume would get channeled from one world to another. This cant happen without a guardian hence the buildup of chaotic stuff in Arcadia, as soon as a guardian is restored, logic must be taken from Stark to Arcadia and chaos to Stark in order to balance everything out. If a crap load of chaos suddenly gets channeled into a world of logic, its not suprising that logical devices, technology, messes up. It is also mentioned in dreamfall I think that technology cant function in Arcadia without magic due to the chaotic nature of the world. Therefore, it is probably taking a while to filter out the chaos elements from Stark, which would explain why technology is taking a while to get back to normal.

 

 

 



Ooh, I have an Unresolved Question: How did April get back to the Journeyman from the Dream Chamber?

 

I'm not going to add this one simply because I think a plausible enough explanation is: the same way Zoë did it. AKA April walked all the way back around, (all the way) up the ladder, and hit the right combination on the wall. Though who knows?

 

 



when I was fiddling with 4k DSR in dreamfall, I noticed the white one saying she's all alone. But in the first reveal trailer from DLC she directs herself to Zoë again and saying "where have you gone to dreamer, the skygod has been searching for you".. so it mean she started comunicating with eachother again ?

 

That is really weird. I agree, it does sound like the White of Kin - isn't she supposed to be devoured right about now? Maybe the "sky god" is someone we haven't been introduced to yet? Maybe it's referring to the ultimate creator who/that exists in the Dreamtime - the Vagabond? Maybe it's the new Mother who's speaking? Regardless, I'm going to leave it out of my question list only because it pertains to DFC and I'm sure a whole host of questions will erupt as soon as we get into the actual game.

 

One last note - I actually replayed TLJ (and now Dreamfall) in the past few weeks in preparation for DFC and I encountered some new questions from TLJ (this original list was actually made back in 2009) so maybe I will go back to add them in if/when someone has some other contributions/corrections to make.



#29 wandrew

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 00:08

Don't forget the stuff we KNOW they saw in that time: Fiona told April about the Maerum city she saw in the canals, and she and Mickey were transported to an Arcadian jungle while watching the screen (the Northlands aren't particularly tropical, so I wonder where it was? An island in the Sea of Songs?). Emma saw the Maerum queen, even if only in a dream, and Charlie (and Emma?) would have seen the Banda come through the jukebox into the Fringe. We never heard what happened to that Banda: whether he jumped back to Arcadia (which is what, I imagine, most of us assumed), or if he ran off into the night. If he could be transported at that moment, how many others were over that period, as well?

 

But I'm a big proponent of what I used to call the 'hard reset' theory: that the leakage that had happened between worlds for the 200 years of Adrian's overtime as Guardian had gradually lead to all sorts of things being where they shouldn't, so Gordon had to make some rather drastic changes to get things back on course. This might explain the recent tipping of the scales re: tech from Stark to Arcadia. MIGHT. :D

 

The original Divide lead to families, etc., being split between worlds. Maybe the 'hard reset'/Collapse did too?


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#30 WorldsReunited

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 01:18

Emma saw the Maerum queen, even if only in a dream, and Charlie (and Emma?) would have seen the Banda come through the jukebox into the Fringe. We never heard what happened to that Banda: whether he jumped back to Arcadia (which is what, I imagine, most of us assumed), or if he ran off into the night. If he could be transported at that moment, how many others were over that period, as well?

From what we've heard/seen, Emma's maerum thing was in a dream. Also didn't the Banda just disappear in the cutscene?

#31 wandrew

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 04:04

I think he just looked around awkwardly. :D


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#32 Ceridwen

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 07:44

The cutscene ended when the banda had realised he was somewhere else and stopped playing and looked around in a manner as confused as the onlookers and then it was over and a new chapter began. And it was April who saw Emma's scultpure become 'alive' as one of the maerum for an Instant. But she wasn't sure she'd seen it because it was only for a moment and while April had her back turned to it washing her hands.


A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."


Finding yourself is brilliant! You desert everybody, abandon your responsibilities and relationships, and focus completely on your own personal misery. It's a douche for the soul.

 


#33 khh

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 12:25

RE: magic supporting scientific principles like anti-gravity - my main problem with this is accepting that the raw element/property/whatever of "magic" obeys natural laws and works in consistent, logical ways. This is not something I'm entirely willing to accept, given the equation we've been taught that magic= chaos. But on the other hand alchemists create magical potions which presumably work the same way each time with the same ingredients. So I don't know. I read that thread you linked to (thanks for that!) and I actually prefer one of the theories in there by LogicalDreamer (third page), even if it is a little rough:

I think a batter theory of magic would be that it works in logically consistent and predictable way on the small scale, but that different principles can't be combined into a whole without unpredictable and inconsistent results. This would explain why magic still a useful and sought-after skill in Arcadia, which it wouldn't be if it was simply chaotic. But it would also explain why Arcadia is stuck in the middle ages, while Stark progressed. Since they can't combine different fields to produce further advancements, which is the source of most - if not all - the radical innovations in our world, then there is a hard-limit to their progression. If, through the application of our science (which in this context must be thought of as "magic" to the Arcadians) they were finally able to integrate and exchange between fields of study, this would also explain why their combined powers were so great, and why the Divide was the a logical way of limiting that power.

 

 

The cutscene ended when the banda had realised he was somewhere else and stopped playing and looked around in a manner as confused as the onlookers and then it was over and a new chapter began. And it was April who saw Emma's scultpure become 'alive' as one of the maerum for an Instant. But she wasn't sure she'd seen it because it was only for a moment and while April had her back turned to it washing her hands.

 

You're right, but there is no doubt that the sculpture is of one of the Maerum. Where did Emma get the idea from?


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April Ryan is my friend,
Every sorrow she can mend.
When I visit her dark realm,
Does it simply overwhelm.


#34 Ceridwen

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 12:44

I think she said something about a dream? I need to replay TLJ. I am absolutely not arguing the fact that it's a sculpture of a maerum though!


A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that."


Finding yourself is brilliant! You desert everybody, abandon your responsibilities and relationships, and focus completely on your own personal misery. It's a douche for the soul.

 


#35 Bruno

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 13:02

I think she said something about a dream? I need to replay TLJ. I am absolutely not arguing the fact that it's a sculpture of a maerum though!

 

I just checked the transcript and couldn't find any direct reference from Emma herself, although when we first meet her in TLJ and April starts talking about the dream she had with the White Dragon, this bit of conversation comes up:

 

 

April : Like you're in any position to make fun of my dreams. Have you looked at your sculptures lately?

Emma : Oh, that's low. I'd punch you out if I wasn't so hungry. You wanna go get some lunch at the Fringe?

 

So... It would seem Emma had mentioned before to April that her sculpture was based on dreams she had. That particular conversation is not in the game though.


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#36 wandrew

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 13:10

April : Like you're in any position to make fun of my dreams. Have you looked at your sculptures lately?

#37 khh

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 15:10

I never interpreted that to mean Emma's sculpture came from a dream, but rather that while April may have surrealistic and strange dreams, Emma makes surrealistic art.


April Ryan is my friend,
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When I visit her dark realm,
Does it simply overwhelm.


#38 tummy ooh aah

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 05:47

Don't forget the stuff we KNOW they saw in that time: Fiona told April about the Maerum city she saw in the canals, and she and Mickey were transported to an Arcadian jungle while watching the screen (the Northlands aren't particularly tropical, so I wonder where it was? An island in the Sea of Songs?). Emma saw the Maerum queen, even if only in a dream, and Charlie (and Emma?) would have seen the Banda come through the jukebox into the Fringe. We never heard what happened to that Banda: whether he jumped back to Arcadia (which is what, I imagine, most of us assumed), or if he ran off into the night. If he could be transported at that moment, how many others were over that period, as well?

 

 This only works to explain what was "seen" if the time period known as the "collapse" is interpreted loosely. Maybe characters are throwing around the term fairly inexactly, but the fact of the matter is that Charlie definitely refers to strange things seen "during" the collapse and he also definitely says April disappeared "just days" before that time. In other words, the collapse is defined as a period of time (a few days) *after* the events of TLJ - not anything we were privy to. If the collapse was indeed defined by magical things bleeding into Stark, then why not include the days before April vanished as part of the collapse as well? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying the main canonical in-game "explanations" of the collapse do not support this view!

 

April vanished back in '09, just days before the Collapse. We spent a long time searching for her before we-- Before I gave up.

 

RE: Emma's Maerum sculpture - the resemblace between it and the Maerum people is specific and accurate enough for us I think to conclude that Emma did indeed get the idea from Arcadia - through a dream/waking dream, something - it wasn't just a "lucky guess".

 

--

 

On an unrelated note, I wanted to raise a new question for discussion. I don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but I didn't want to make a new thread about it so hopefully this is fine.

 

In DF during the conversation on the airship between Brian Westhouse and Zoë, there were two uses of terminology that intrigued me. Maybe I'm over-thinking this but Brian twice refers to his being "unstuck" from time:

 


Zoë: What? And you're how old exactly?

Brian Westhouse: I may be getting on, but I'm not that old. No, I got...unstuck from time, and I was caught between worlds for a time.

 


Brian Westhouse: Most certainly not. I mean, if I was, I would probably have gone back at some point. No, I made my way through the Divide by more unconventional means.

I'm not that old, mind you. Something happened that got me...unstuck from time.

That/(It) wasn't the best idea I ever had, but still, here I am, in good health and with all my limbs intact. I shouldn't complain.

 

I mainly find this really weird in the context of the conversation - it should be about Brian's being stuck in time - that's what Zoë is asking about - but instead Brian places a deliberate emphasis on his getting unstuck.  When did this "stickage" and "unstickage" actually occur given the timeline we witness at the beginning of the game? Is the implication that the Undreaming attacking actually was the event that unstuck him - if so why does this matter? The diction in general here is really hinky to me - is the implication also that Brian got unstuck and THEN stuck *again* between worlds? Why is any of this relevant to us or to Zoë? It's clearly not a matter of: "I was stuck in time and finally managed to unstick myself". It's so deliberately mysterious and obfuscating that it piqued my interest.

 

What do you guys think? If I'm crazy feel free to let me know.


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#39 wandrew

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 08:18

This only works to explain what was "seen" if the time period known as the "collapse" is interpreted loosely. Maybe characters are throwing around the term fairly inexactly, but the fact of the matter is that Charlie definitely refers to strange things seen "during" the collapse and he also definitely says April disappeared "just days" before that time. In other words, the collapse is defined as a period of time (a few days) *after* the events of TLJ - not anything we were privy to. If the collapse was indeed defined by magical things bleeding into Stark, then why not include the days before April vanished as part of the collapse as well? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying the main canonical in-game "explanations" of the collapse do not support this view!


No, it's a good point. I never really felt as if descriptions of the Collapse SHOULD match the events in TLJ, just that they seemed to. But I think your quote shows that they weren't necessarily the same thing.
 

On an unrelated note, I wanted to raise a new question for discussion. I don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but I didn't want to make a new thread about it so hopefully this is fine.
 
In DF during the conversation on the airship between Brian Westhouse and Zoë, there were two uses of terminology that intrigued me. Maybe I'm over-thinking this but Brian twice refers to his being "unstuck" from time:
 
I mainly find this really weird in the context of the conversation - it should be about Brian's being stuck in time - that's what Zoë is asking about - but instead Brian places a deliberate emphasis on his getting unstuck.  When did this "stickage" and "unstickage" actually occur given the timeline we witness at the beginning of the game? Is the implication that the Undreaming attacking actually was the event that unstuck him - if so why does this matter? The diction in general here is really hinky to me - is the implication also that Brian got unstuck and THEN stuck *again* between worlds? Why is any of this relevant to us or to Zoë? It's clearly not a matter of: "I was stuck in time and finally managed to unstick myself". It's so deliberately mysterious and obfuscating that it piqued my interest.
 
What do you guys think? If I'm crazy feel free to let me know.


Again you make a good point, but it never felt wrong to me. I suppose if you imagine the opposite of being unstuck from time not as being stuck in time, but pegged to the timeline. So, if you're not unstuck, you progress through time and age as normal. The opposite to this is being unstuck. But you're completely right to say it's not really a good dichotomy.

If you DID go with the opposite and say he was stuck in time, it sort of takes the whole matter to a place it doesn't really want to.

Questioner: Were you stuck in time?
Brian: No! I was stuck in the Storytime!

Although I do like a good farce. :D
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#40 tummy ooh aah

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 16:24

Again you make a good point, but it never felt wrong to me. I suppose if you imagine the opposite of being unstuck from time not as being stuck in time, but pegged to the timeline. So, if you're not unstuck, you progress through time and age as normal. The opposite to this is being unstuck. But you're completely right to say it's not really a good dichotomy.

If you DID go with the opposite and say he was stuck in time, it sort of takes the whole matter to a place it doesn't really want to.

Questionaer: Were you stuck in time?
Brian: No! I was stuck in the Storytime!

Although I do like a good farce. :D


Hehe... Yes I believe you're right. That makes a lot of sense, it's just not a conventional way of phrasing it. Thank you for the explanation!




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