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#21 khh

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 06:15

The drac kin don't go shifting about to other realms. From what I can tell from the story(s) they seem to be stuck in their respective worlds (2 in stark, 2 in arcadia) and they cant move about (with the exception of getting into the guardians realm if required, and that maybe even under specific circumstances). Cortez and McAllen couldn't. If they could, who would need shifters ?

I always that it was that they wouldn't rather than that they couldn't. For Cortez the motivation is simple, he didn't want to upset the Balance even further by going into Arcadia. As for McAllen, I think he was just to busy with what he was doing in Stark, and since he seemed to fancy himself as something of a Chessmaster, he preferred to have April do all the work for him. And given the prophesy and destiny thing involved, who's to say he even could have gotten together the stone plate himself.


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#22 Pawlo_86

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 07:05

After events from Dreamfall I think that Zoe is Lady Alvane (storyteller, knows April and Kian, has Crow, stuck in Storytime - place between worlds like House Of All Worlds) but it may change in Chapters. Also Zoe and Kian will be main characters in Dreamfall Chapters so it possible that their paths will cross and something will happen - you know what i mean. There is also that mysterious third character - arcadian female who may have connection to Lady Alvane.



#23 Ragnar

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 08:25

I'm still firmly in the "Kian's traumatic time in Friar's Keep has led to a period of deep questioning of his own identity, in which he discovers he's actually always been a woman and after many perils and lots of personal discovery becomes Lady Alvane" camp. 

 

;)

 

Erika, I TOLD you to stop hacking into our internal wiki. Seriously, now we have to change THAT story twist as well :(


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#24 Gezzas

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 09:17

Until this morning I that storyteller (Lady Alvane) was just to show that we are playing the story. Way to make my life more complicated.

 

Theories about this subject was nice read. Personally I like "April and Kian siblings" and "Emma or The White of the Kin is Lady Alvane" best.

 

After events from Dreamfall I think that Zoe is Lady Alvane (storyteller, knows April and Kian, has Crow, stuck in Storytime - place between worlds like House Of All Worlds) but it may change in Chapters. Also Zoe and Kian will be main characters in Dreamfall Chapters so it possible that their paths will cross and something will happen - you know what i mean. There is also that mysterious third character - arcadian female who may have connection to Lady Alvane.

 

Do we have confirmation that PC 3 will arcadian? I read somewhere that PC 3 will be female, but that was it.

 

I think that PC 3 will be from Stark. Someone who lead uprising against EYE and corporations while Kian fight the Azadi and Zoe would be mediator between worlds.



#25 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 09:29

Erika, I TOLD you to stop hacking into our internal wiki. Seriously, now we have to change THAT story twist as well :(

 

Guys, I'm sorry. I was really disappointed that I missed out on JourneyCon, so I had to do something to feel like I was part of the club. 

 

Though I do I look forward to finding out what the Plan B that you come up with under deadline is. ;) (Assuming that bit of story isn't reserved for TLJH..which honestly seems likely.) 


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#26 Bruno

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 09:37

I have to admit that I always thought that Faith's White Lady referred to the White Dragon (well... they're both white, aren't they?...  :unsure: ). It wasn't until I read this thread that I realised that is not a given (and thinking about it, the Lady Alvane theory does make sense, although I am not sure I am convinced with her being Emma...).

Thanks guys, as if there weren't enough mysteries already!...  :P

 

 

(Kidding, the mystery is one of the reasons I love this saga so much... :) )


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#27 Pawlo_86

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 10:08

I have to admit that I always thought that Faith's White Lady referred to the White Dragon (well... they're both white, aren't they?...  :unsure:

 

It seems that White Dragon was the one who told Faith to talk with Zoe and start "Find April Ryan, Save April Ryan" mission. So White Lady can be White Kin.



#28 urzagc13

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 11:09

Let's see the relevant quotes from the game (emphasis in bold is added by me) :

Zoë: Hi. I'm Zoë.
White of the Kin: How fascinating! You're here, and yet you're not. Can I touch you?
White of the Kin (addressing Zoë): You've come to me for the same reason April came to me not long ago. You're stuck.
Zoë: I'm stuck here in Arcadia, yes. I need to go back to Stark.
White of the Kin: But this isn't the only place you're stuck. You're stuck in life, like driftwood to a river. You lack direction. You lack faith.
Zoë: Maybe so, but that's why it's important that I go back home. People there need me, and I want to be there for them.
I don't want to be adrift anymore. I want to be where I'm needed the most.
White of the Kin: And that will bring you home, Zoë. Your commitment to your friends, your belief in yourself and your abilities...
Faith will bring you where you're needed the most.
Zoë: How?
White of the Kin: It's easy. You're not really here.
Zoë: That's what you said earlier...but it doesn't make sense. I'm right here.
White of the Kin: Yes. And no. You're unlike anyone I've ever met. You belong to the storytime.
Zoë: Okay, now you're being cryptic. I've had enough of that. I can't take any more riddles. Just tell me what it means.
White of the Kin: I'm sorry. It's not cryptic to me. It just is.
Zoë: With all due respect, I just want to get home. I want to help my friends. I want to stop the bad guys from winning. I want to...
I want to be myself again. (White of the Kin nods as she continues.)
The last time I was here in Arcadia, I fell asleep, and when I woke up I was back home, in Stark. How did I do that?
When I fell asleep on the airship on my way here, I didn't disappear.
White of the Kin: That's because you didn't dream. If you dream the right dream, it becomes reality. You can go anywhere you wish.
To go back to your own world, you just have to wake up.
Zoë: You mean this is all a dream?
White of the Kin: This isn't a dream, but you're dreaming.
Zoë: I'm confused again. All I need to do is go to sleep and dream about home...and (then) I'll wake up and be home?
White of the Kin: Maybe. I've never met anyone like you. I only know that there are some who have a strong connection with the world of dreams.
And you are one of them.
Zoë: I'll just have to take your word for it. Help me fall asleep. Help me dream, or wake up, or whatever it is you said I need to do to get home.
Time's running out. I have to be where I'm needed the most.
White of the Kin: (beckoning) Come here.
(whispering) You must find her, Zoë. You must help her. Wherever she is, that's where you're needed the most.
(Zoë disappears)
Crow: W-where did she go? What did you do to her? Did you use magic on her?
White of the Kin: I didn't do anything to her, funny bird. She left this place on her own.
Crow: But...but she just vanished!
White of the Kin: I know. Isn't it fascinating? There's no one else like her. She's special.
Crow: I've never met a human girl who hasn't been special. For all I know, they've all got strange powers and important destinies. I just hope she's okay.
Brian Westhouse (having seen the entire scene from an upper ledge): Most interesting.

 

 

 

What I get from that is the following:

- The White of the Kin knows something about the Storytime, it's unclear how much though.

- She also has heard of Dreamers ("some have a strong connection with dreams") but it's also pretty obvious that she's never actually met one, and she's incredibly surprised encountering Zoe (and fascinated by her). To me that's THE biggest clue that she's not the White Lady, who has been "guiding" Zoe (through Faith) for the entire game. Note that Faith was also a Dreamer, and The White Lady has already met her (when she gave her the task of telling Zoe to save April), so such surprise is not justifiable if the White Kin is the White Lady.

tl;dr If the White of the Kin was the White Lady (who got Zoe started on her journey), I would expect at least a "You're here at last"/"I've been waiting for you, Zoe" bit of dialogue, not what is essentially an "Oh my gosh, I've heard about you Dreamers and now I finally get to meet one!!!!1!! Can I touch you?" fan-gasm.

- On the other hand, you're right that she *does* seem to use Faith's "find April Ryan, save April Ryan" phrase, that as we find out later, was what the White Lady specifically told her to say. It's not *exactly* that phrase though, is it? She says that she should find and *help* April, not *save* her. That April needs help is something that can be deduced from other sources (everyone seems able to tell she's depressed/has a death wish), the White of the Kin knows about April's importance for the Balance and the twin worlds (so helping April is what's "needed the most") and even maybe the White can use a Kin's unique senses to tell that Zoe's and April's fates are intertwined, so she tells Zoe that her "destiny" seems to be related to April's, so she should find her.

tl;dr The White Dragon's "find her, help her" phrase is critically different than Faith's/The White Lady's "find April Ryan, *SAVE* April Ryan" phrase and also it can reasonably be "explained" in-universe without necessarily resorting to the conclusion that The White Kin is the White Lady.

 

And then, comes the final nail in the coffin: Faith says that The White Lady visited her one last time (after the events in the swamps and April's stabbing) to tell her that "Zoe *did* save April" (somehow, despite what we saw happening. Note that this also reminds me of Lady Alvane reassuring April that Emma survived being shot). Now, where is the White of the Kin at that exact moment? She's at the Dark People's library, getting attacked by something! So, unless she can be at two place at the same time*, she can't be the White Lady.

 

*I can actually accept the possibility of the White Lady being the White of the Kin from the future, but if we start down that path, again why not just used an already established "time-traveller" (more precisely someone who resides outside time), Lady Alvane, instead? 


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#29 swamplady

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 12:12

Oh wow the topic has picked up :)

 

I personally would just like to see all the loose ends in TLJ (like Lady Alvane) to fall in their place by the end of the saga. You know, like nice piece ot puzzle, creating a whole picture, where you couldn't really see what the picture is about until you get that last piece of puzzle. I'm looking forward to having the: "aaaahh!" moments and  "that makes so much sence, it all makes sence now! how clever" moments someday. I would be dissapointed to see some overstretched and cheesy plot elements or even worse - forgotten elements. Do you guys know the TV series Lost? What I mean is that I hope TLJ won't end up like it....

I was thinking recently that TLJ could easily be a book cycle. It has such a vivid storyline and is a masterpiece amongst video games. It is simply a beautiful story. I hope one day to read books :). I would say they'd be a success.

 

I hope Lady Alvane is someone who we know from the beggining of the story and someone who will be there till the end... It will just... make sence. So even if Zoe is a good match, she's not there from the beggining. And I don't think it can be Emma, Emma has no magic powers...

 

Though Ragnar suggested in a reply to my post that there are still pieces of puzzle that are missing, so we cannot say that the picture is about yet.



#30 Lee-m

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 13:10

I always that it was that they wouldn't rather than that they couldn't.

It's not very clear why they don't. I just take it as a can't. That might be by choice or enforced some how, no real way to tell.

as for McAllen, I think he was just to busy with what he was doing in Stark, and since he seemed to fancy himself as something of a Chessmaster, he preferred to have April do all the work for him

Ya see, I just don't buy that personally. McAllen says his influence has been disturbingly limited in Arcadia. If he could have gone and fixed it, i'm sure he would have.

Anyway with the kins inability or reluctance to go realm hopping, I would write the white of the kin off as TWL.

Then again, an old lady with dodgy legs, and seemingly no way to get access to the wire or dreamcore going wandering off to the winter doesnt really work in my brain either.

#31 toremygg

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 13:20

My memory fails me, on account of becoming so old, you know. What do we know of the "full story" of the Divide? Do we know why two + two Kin ended up in each of the Twin Worlds? Do we know who exactly caused the Divide – were the Kin all in on it? Andy, this is your area, right? :P



#32 Dmm

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 13:27

Then again, an old lady with dodgy legs, and seemingly no way to get access to the wire or dreamcore going wandering off to the winter doesnt really work in my brain either.

 

Her physical condition would rule her out when it comes to getting around in a conventional, Stark way but don't forget the magic. Remember, Zoe wasn't physically present in either the winter or Arcadia. We have no reason to believe at this point that Lady Alvane was unable to do the something similar in regards to contacting Faith. I'm not saying she is the white lady, just that there is really nothing to rule her out based on what we know so far.



#33 Lee-m

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 13:35

My memory fails me, on account of becoming so old, you know.

Right there with ya ;)
 

What do we know of the "full story" of the Divide?

We have the version Tobias tells April in TLJ, and also abit from Abnaxus.

Do we know why two + two Kin ended up in each of the Twin Worlds?

No one gives an out right reason for it. Maybe to watch over / help the Sentinel.

Do we know who exactly caused the Divide – were the Kin all in on it

It was mainly the kin, and there were (are?) 4 of them that we know about. They left the guardians realm and split 2 to Stark, 2 to Arcadia, and have never moved since by all accounts.

#34 wandrew

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 13:39

My memory fails me, on account of becoming so old, you know. What do we know of the "full story" of the Divide? Do we know why two + two Kin ended up in each of the Twin Worlds? Do we know who exactly caused the Divide – were the Kin all in on it? Andy, this is your area, right? :P

The Kin collectively were referred to as hatching the plan, but one of them was especially involved in the rite (probably Cortez).

As for why they were split that way, who knows? (Obvs Rag and Dag do. :P) My guess is that they were lit to evenly monitor the worlds, but not because some were especially magic and some scientific. Mind you, McAllen was really into genetics...

#35 Lee-m

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 13:42

We have no reason to believe at this point that Lady Alvane was unable to do the something similar in regards to contacting Faith.

But that would make her a dreamer wouldnt it ? Also Zoe needs a physical way to do what she does. She needs to be hooked up to a dreamer and the wire, plus take a bunch of drugs. Unless the stark telecom/wire service has started installations to the house of all worlds, I have problems with that theory lol :)

#36 Bruno

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 14:07

But that would make her a dreamer wouldnt it ? Also Zoe needs a physical way to do what she does. She needs to be hooked up to a dreamer and the wire, plus take a bunch of drugs. Unless the stark telecom/wire service has started installations to the house of all worlds, I have problems with that theory lol :)

 

Well... maybe not a dreamer, but something else. We do know that LA is able to follow events and interact with the Twin Worlds (she certainly does so in Stark when she opens the portal for April to escape), so she seems to be powerful enough to be able to contact Faith as well.


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#37 Lee-m

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 14:26

Well... maybe not a dreamer, but something else. We do know that LA is able to follow events and interact with the Twin Worlds (she certainly does so in Stark when she opens the portal for April to escape), so she seems to be powerful enough to be able to contact Faith as well.

There is a big difference between Stark, Arcadia and the Winter. The first two are physical places that a physical shift can be opened to. The winter isnt. Just saying LA is powerful and thats all, doesnt really convince me.

Its always been the only real stumbling block for me, otherwise urzagc13s theory and reasoning is good.

#38 Bruno

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 14:53

There is a big difference between Stark, Arcadia and the Winter. The first two are physical places that a physical shift can be opened to. The winter isnt. Just saying LA is powerful and thats all, doesnt really convince me.

Its always been the only real stumbling block for me, otherwise urzagc13s theory and reasoning is good.

 

The Winter is connected to the Storytime though. Quoting from Ragnar's interview to Rock, Paper, Shotgun:

 

 

RPS: The death of Faith is such a beautiful theme, and a beautiful scene. Did Faith create The Winter? [The Winter was a third world introduced in Dreamfall, distinct from Stark and Arcadia]

Ragnar: I don’t know how much to say… Yeah, yeah she did. In a way. She created what you see of The Winter. The Winter itself – no. But she created this place.

RPS: The dollhouse.
Ragnar: Yeah, and it links to this place, The Storytime.

 

Ragnar very explicitly says that Faith did not create the Winter. Is it only a part of the Storytime? Maybe. I don't think we know yet. And where is exactly is the House Of All Worlds located?...


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#39 Vainamoinen

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 14:55

Yes, oh, the Alvane controversy.

For me, The Longest Journey ended with the revelation that April told the story herself. She was the storyteller, we see the last stage of her life to make the story complete. That was the whole sense of that scene. I have trouble interpreting the frame story working out as "some lady whom we haven't yet met surprisingly knows Crow very well".

Thinking of the scene like that lacks the revelation, the closure.

It's true that the name April was never spoken by Crow (yes, that applies to the German version as well), but it wasn't really that important to the scene really. Indeed, it would have been a little too base to make the already clear anagnorisis here even more unmistakable by having Crow repeat April's name.

There could be quite exciting story twists that could make April inherit the Alvane name. I'm not set on the idea that she "marries Kian Alvane". However, if Lady Alvane turns out NOT to be April Ryan, that would be a teensy bit like a part of TLJ that I loved has retroactively been ruined... not an uncommon occurrence in Lucas-y universes unfortunately. :mellow:
 


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#40 khh

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 15:35

The way I view it, Lady Alvane would have been April if there was no sequel. Ragnar may already have had the plan for the sequels and the other characters, including how someone else is actually Lady Alvane, but the scene was obviously meant as closure if TLJ had to stand entirely on it's own. That would not be a retcon exactly, but at the same time LA being April would not be a red herring exactly either. Rather Lady Alvanes exists as a probability function, and it's only by directly measuring it (in the sequel) that the probability function collapses to a definitive identity.

 

At least it makes sense to think of it that way for me.


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April Ryan is my friend,
Every sorrow she can mend.
When I visit her dark realm,
Does it simply overwhelm.





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