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Dreamfall Chapters broke my heart


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#21 Veen Friend

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 17:09

Interesting to have the story from another's perspective in such a detailed description.The important parts of DFC so different from person to person. I tend to lock the April part out of the story, as finished. The Saga character was for me like a reborn April right from the start. Although arguing a lot about it. :crow:

 

Nice to wait for so long, to the finished edition of DFC. I think DFC became a longer story play-time-wise than I have presumed. And i couldn't wait for all to be finished, although it would have been a good choice, to wait for it all. Congratulations with your patience.. :)


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#22 LootHunter

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 18:07

April who was fine and dandy in TLJ is now broken because she cannot accept not being the Neo of the situation (hehehe it's true, though!) does she feel like she's lost her identity at this point? I as a played might say so because I want the old April back but she's quite fine with her choice: help the rebels and not shift. Why has she lost her abilities?

As I understood it, she was just refusing to move on. She was not willing to return to her friends in Stark (maybe bacause she blames herself for what happened to Emma) and didn't want to embrace her dragon powers (if she had any).
 
I actually don't quite get, why she was so upset that she was not to spend 1000 years in Balance Tower and return to a world she wouldn't recognise. Yet again it was more than 2 years (if I remember correctly) befor she tried to return to Stark and discovered she can't shift. And a lot could happen during that time (even more during 10 years betwen TLJ and Dreamfall).

 

Still if TLJ:Home will ever be released, I hope that Ragnar will put much more effort in explaining reasons behind April's change, than he did for Klax and Westhouse.



#23 the red of the kin

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 19:48

Interesting to have the story from another's perspective in such a detailed description.The important parts of DFC so different from person to person. I tend to lock the April part out of the story, as finished. The Saga character was for me like a reborn April right from the start. Although arguing a lot about it. :crow:
 
Nice to wait for so long, to the finished edition of DFC. I think DFC became a longer story play-time-wise that I have presumed. And i couldn't wait for all to be finished, although it would have been a good choice, to wait for it all. Congratulations with your patience.. :)

 
That's the beauty of being a community: everybody's got a point of view and, as long as we're civil, it's great to debate over them!
I remember when Mass Effect 3 was over most people denied stuff and there was a very cool concept going around called "Indoctrination theory" I won't go into details but it basically was players telling Bioware and EA "we don't buy this ending: please make it so this theory becomes the true explanation of what happens".
I sort of feel that way with April's ending because as it is, in my mind it's as if she was just a tool of the balance and nothing more..and she never truly found peace. It's like those "some-times-you-just-have-to-let-go" songs. Sad and depressing really. I should stop talking about this, really :P
 

As I understood it, she was just refusing to move on. She was not willing to return to her friends in Stark (maybe bacause she blames herself for what happened to Emma) and didn't want to embrace her dragon powers (if she had any).


Could be. I think I recall her saying at one point that she was just done with that part of her life. Too bad for Charllie...I really hoped they would get together I never wanted her to get with Kian, he seemed very shallow in DF:TLJ. Maybe it was Manny's death too...who really knows.
 

I actually don't quite get, why she was so upset that she was not to spend 1000 years in Balance Tower and return to a world she wouldn't recognise. Yet again it was more than 2 years (if I remember correctly) befor she tried to return to Stark and discovered she can't shift. And a lot could happen during that time (even more during 10 years betwen TLJ and Dreamfall).


Ah! Speculation, speculation....it would be great to know ;-)
 

Still if TLJ:Home will ever be released, I hope that Ragnar will put much more effort in explaining reasons behind April's change, than he did for Klax and Westhouse.


well (sorry: accidentally posted: here's an edit)
Well I think Klacks and Westhouse are true by-the-book villains. One has always been evil but is such a good actor it tricked most of the audience (gamers included) into thinking he's a goof-ball. No-comment on that.
The other one is the possessed guy that only wanted to do good but wasn't strong enough.
Together I think they work like a charm: I  only wish we could get a little more screentime with them, actually seeing Klacks build the machine with Brian and the Azadi. But by keeping their secret until the end the game censored any eventuality of that. Too bad.

But I see what you're saying. The game provides the answer to what happened to Brian and to Klacks, but it is a bit vague circa the dynamics of how and when. It would probably have taken a whole other book just to fill in that intel!
Speaking of which, I think it would be reeeeeally awesome if some extra books would appear in Marcuria's library...or even in Abnaxus' abode....don't you think?
What about abnaxus being a librarian that greets you...

...wow...this sounds great! Me likey lotty!


Edited by the red of the kin, 12 October 2016 - 19:56.

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#24 magic88889

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 21:05

Red, I think you're equating somebody's job with their identity.  That's not what I mean by that.  Your identity is your sense of self.  Who you are, deep down.  On a spiritual level if you will.  Most people have at lest some awareness of who they are, and when their actions don't reflect that they often get depressed.  They feel like they've lost their way in life.  It doesn't matter how successful they are, they don't feel that way.  It's more emotional than anything else.

 

April, as a young student, probably never had a chance to really find out who she was.  Maybe I'm reading too much into it, projecting how I felt as a college student, but I wasn't exactly sure who I was, or who I wanted to be.  And that's not just career-wise.  April's issue at the start of TLJ wasn't so much that she has lost her identity, but that she never really discovered who she was.  And while her long journey should have helped her discover that (as often happens in stories), she's told in the end that she was going to have this big important cosmic role to play.  Ironically, her acceptance of that role is probably the most telling thing about who she is.  The problem is that knowing that she was going to spend 1000 years as the Guardian, she never does the analyzing part that's required for somebody to gain self-knowledge.  She just kind of goes with it, never discovering her identity. 

In DF, we find an April who has strayed quite far from where she was.  She's so far from her identity that she's become depressed and bitter about it.  She's angry.  This is IMO why she can't shift anymore.  She's so far removed from herself that she's lost a defining characteristic.  When she finally dies, and we meet her in Dreamtime, she is finally free to be herself.

 

Kian has a similar problem.  He as raised to be the Apostle.  That's all he's known, and believes that that is who he is.  He makes the mistake to equate his job with this identity.  So yes, when he finds out that his blind faith in his leaders is misplaced, it's not exactly a good time for him.  His whole life, he killed and slaughtered people.  It was fine with him because he thought that he was doing the will of the Goddess.  That his leaders would not tell him to do such horrible acts if it wasn't.  To find out that his leaders (and Vamon claims it goes much higher that him, which we later find out is true) are not doing that, but rather directing him to further their own ambitions, is not good for Kian's idntity.  Suddenly he's not the chosen Apostle, bringing the Light of the Goddess to the people, but rather the thug, furthering the ambitions of greedy men.  It calls into question everything he's ever done.  If that doesn't make you pause for a bit, I don't know what will.

In DFC he is so clearly lost.  Look at several of his early choices.  Do you kill Arn? What about the Warden?.  Whether you kill of not is a huge self-identity thing.  The very fact that he would even question that is telling, given his past.  Then later with the rapist.  To torture of not?  I doubt Kian is exactly new to the torture scene, so again, his hesitation is telling.  There's several other, smaller moments, but it's clear Kian doesn't have a clue who he really is.

 

You say that Zoe was a party girl.  She dropped out of school yes, but not to party.  She just realized that what she was doing was not her.  That the whole biotech thing maybe wasn't what she wanted to do.  So she's depressed about it.  And let me tell you, if you're depressed, it's kind of hard to do anything.  Which is why we find her, at home, kinda lost.  Not really sure what she want's to do with her life.  She can't even work up the drive to take her exercise at the dojo seriously.  Then she goes on this journey, finds herself again.

The ironic part of that is just as she kinda figures it out, she loses her memory and (if you made that choice) goes right back into biotech. 

This journey is the simplest and most spelled out of the three, and probably the most successful.  She seems really happy in the end.

 

You could say that DFC is a C&C game, and that those kind of choices are expected.  I'd say that the decision to offer us those particular choices is deliberate.  Think about the choices we're offered.  Do I kill of not, and if I do, under what circumstances?  Do I dwell on the past or move on to new things? Do I trust my friend with incriminating evidence or do I go straight to the authorities? Do I get involved in a mugging? Do I keep pushing Likho's buttons or do I try and mend my relationship with somebody I have wronged?  Do I care enough about people to listen to a young Zhid girl's ramblings?  Do I torture somebody, no matter how much they may deserve it?  Does anybody, ever deserve torture? Do I give Na'ane, who made a terrible choice, a second chance, or end any chance she had at redemption?

Do I do what my boyfriend want's and get him his dammed cheese soup, or try and force him to try new things?

They're all big, who-am-I kind of choices.  Some with huge consequences, some not so much.


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#25 bongboy

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 21:28

Do I care enough about people to listen to a young Zhid girl's ramblings?

I agree with your entire post, and I'd like to add one little thing. Kian has to figure out if he cares enough about people to listen to a young Zhid woman's ramblings (she's not a young girl; she's a young woman), and he also has to figure out if he even sees her as a person in the first place. I wouldn't have gone out of my way to add that part if it weren't such a huge part of his character development and identity crisis.

What does it say about me that I instinctively almost spelled "crisis" "crysis"?


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#26 the red of the kin

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 22:47

Red, I think you're equating somebody's job with their identity.


sometimes it's hard to explain myself. I'm not a good writer. I meant the exact opposite. In an earlier post I stated how Zoe at the beginning of DFC is faced with her old self and must decide how to proceed with her life. In the end, through her choice, the result is she has a different job. If the game's focus was to be finding one's identity, then a job change would miss the target. So you see: we agree. It's exaclty what I was trying to say...it's just that sometimes I'm a mess at communication, sorry :P 
edit: I probably failed writing this paragraph as well...there you go :P
 

Your identity is your sense of self.  Who you are, deep down.  On a spiritual level if you will.  Most people have at lest some awareness of who they are, and when their actions don't reflect that they often get depressed.  They feel like they've lost their way in life.  It doesn't matter how successful they are, they don't feel that way.  It's more emotional than anything else.


I like the way you describe it! It's more spiritual than my view.
I think one's identity is a mix of things. How we react to events in our personal life, who we interact with people around us, how our journey in life has shaped us, how and if we passed through difficult times...losses.
Mostly I think that however we, as individuals, perceive ourselves is very distorted and biased by...ourselves!
I think that the best way we can find our identity is by observing how we impact the people, things, events that are around us.

I think this videogame does a good job of portraying his main characters, but I still don't think its focus is on it's characters' identities and if it was then it "missed the target" with me (but I don't mind it at all!).
Another example of identity is when you decide to either kill or torture or threaten the child-abuser. That is an identity-defining moment for sure. Kian has already said multiple times he won't kill anymore people but will he do it? After all he already sort-of did in Friar's keep, no? Either letting die or killing that poor man in the prison sorted a bad effect on the family (I think...if I recall it right).
The player puts him/herself in Kian's shoes and, depending on what kind of person the player is Kian moves a step forward in defining his new identity.
But
If the game's focus was the character's identity I would have expected more consequences, ruminations by Kian, reactions from his friends. Sure: Likho can be more or less of a friend depending and same goes for Enu and that's a good game mechanic that works well, but IF (stressing the if, here!) I was looking for a deeper character-building moment, I would have stressed out Kian's new approach. Is Kian a gentle soul? Then he won't kill any more people.
 

April, as a young student, probably never had a chance to really find out who she was.  Maybe I'm reading too much into it, projecting how I felt as a college student, but I wasn't exactly sure who I was, or who I wanted to be.  And that's not just career-wise.  April's issue at the start of TLJ wasn't so much that she has lost her identity, but that she never really discovered who she was.


Sure: we can look at it like a coming-of-age story (that goes for TLJ, not the dreamer's cycle)
 

And while her long journey should have helped her discover that (as often happens in stories), she's told in the end that she was going to have this big important cosmic role to play.  Ironically, her acceptance of that role is probably the most telling thing about who she is.  The problem is that knowing that she was going to spend 1000 years as the Guardian, she never does the analyzing part that's required for somebody to gain self-knowledge.


What analyzing part?
 

She just kind of goes with it, never discovering her identity. 
In DF, we find an April who has strayed quite far from where she was.  She's so far from her identity that she's become depressed and bitter about it.  She's angry.  This is IMO why she can't shift anymore.  She's so far removed from herself that she's lost a defining characteristic.  When she finally dies, and we meet her in Dreamtime, she is finally free to be herself.


Yeah but those are words she says. I could say right now I found inner peace and am touching the heavens but people would need to feel the journey I took and see each step that led me to my state.
In april's case we see her bitterly accepting her destiny and standing against the Azadi. Then she dies. Then a funeral and her voice in Kian's head. Then nothing until the very end when she says she's at peace but she...says it..by the way when I look at her face...she doesn't even look happy. She looks sort of ..patiently accepting.
 

Kian has a similar problem.  He as raised to be the Apostle.  That's all he's known, and believes that that is who he is.  He makes the mistake to equate his job with this identity.


Nice insight! You're totally right!
 

So yes, when he finds out that his blind faith in his leaders is misplaced, it's not exactly a good time for him.  His whole life, he killed and slaughtered people.  It was fine with him because he thought that he was doing the will of the Goddess.  That his leaders would not tell him to do such horrible acts if it wasn't.  To find out that his leaders (and Vamon claims it goes much higher that him, which we later find out is true) are not doing that, but rather directing him to further their own ambitions, is not good for Kian's idntity.
Suddenly he's not the chosen Apostle, bringing the Light of the Goddess to the people, but rather the thug, furthering the ambitions of greedy men.  It calls into question everything he's ever done.  If that doesn't make you pause for a bit, I don't know what will.


It would make me pause if it was what happened but I guess I didn't see it that way. Kian is smarter than your average Azadi guard and surely understands something is wrong. But he doesn't question his whole life. If he did, he would have gone straight to the rebels and become one of them, join forces etcetera.
But he's loyal to his people and traditions. He's very worried for what's happening but he's not questioning the foundations of his morals. He stands by the Goddess too.
that's why in the end he does go to the rebels but he also tells April he wants to go back to the six and tell them what's going on.
By the way...I don't think you fully grasp the Azadi situation in its whole. Vamon and Sahia surely were greedy but they didn't send Kian there. In fact they're quite annoyed by him from the very beginning. The prophet told the six to send him there.

When captive in Friar's keep (DFC) Kian must have had many doubts. Prison will do that to anybody. It's a quick moment and it's over very soon. When he's freed by the rebels he can't do anything else but join them, since he's an Azadi outlaw and not an Apostle. But his intent remains the same: uncover what's going on and correct the Azadi's mistakes. And in the end he accomplishes it.
 

In DFC he is so clearly lost.  Look at several of his early choices.  Do you kill Arn? What about the Warden?.  Whether you kill of not is a huge self-identity thing.  The very fact that he would even question that is telling, given his past.  Then later with the rapist.  To torture of not?  I doubt Kian is exactly new to the torture scene, so again, his hesitation is telling.  There's several other, smaller moments, but it's clear Kian doesn't have a clue who he really is.


As said above, Those character-building moments are there and they're quite sufficient to me. I like them. But I don't consider them as central to the story.
They would be central if I decided not to kill anyone (as I did) and in the end Kian would not punch or kill Klacks, he would learn the magical's customs, talk with Likho and make him understand that violence is wrong and so forth. Or if I decided to torture the child-molester then Kian would be a Judge Dredd kind of guy: feared but respected, many nightmares but a self-assurance that he's true to the Azadi way...or something like that I don't know...
As said: I'm perfectly happy the way the game is.
 

You say that Zoe was a party girl.  She dropped out of school yes, but not to party.  She just realized that what she was doing was not her.  That the whole biotech thing maybe wasn't what she wanted to do.  So she's depressed about it.  And let me tell you, if you're depressed, it's kind of hard to do anything.  Which is why we find her, at home, kinda lost.  Not really sure what she want's to do with her life.  She can't even work up the drive to take her exercise at the dojo seriously.  Then she goes on this journey, finds herself again.


I didn't see it so intensely. Sure: she seemed a little uncertain...but many kids go through that phase. It never seemed to me like she was in serious depression or totally lost.
But I agree: she definitely grew up through her experiences of the videogame. As I was saying...a "coming-of-age" kind of arc.
 

The ironic part of that is just as she kinda figures it out, she loses her memory and (if you made that choice) goes right back into biotech. 
This journey is the simplest and most spelled out of the three, and probably the most successful.  She seems really happy in the end.


A baby and a husband (or boyfriend). Gotta love them happy endings ;-)
 

You could say that DFC is a C&C game, and that those kind of choices are expected.

 
Sorry for my ignorance: what is a C&C game? (Command & Conquer....omg that was sooooooo long ago °_°)
 

I'd say that the decision to offer us those particular choices is deliberate.  Think about the choices we're offered.  Do I kill of not, and if I do, under what circumstances?  Do I dwell on the past or move on to new things? Do I trust my friend with incriminating evidence or do I go straight to the authorities? Do I get involved in a mugging? Do I keep pushing Likho's buttons or do I try and mend my relationship with somebody I have wronged?  Do I care enough about people to listen to a young Zhid girl's ramblings?  Do I torture somebody, no matter how much they may deserve it?  Does anybody, ever deserve torture? Do I give Na'ane, who made a terrible choice, a second chance, or end any chance she had at redemption?
Do I do what my boyfriend want's and get him his dammed cheese soup, or try and force him to try new things?
They're all big, who-am-I kind of choices.  Some with huge consequences, some not so much.


I agree: they definitely are character-defining choices. But, as seen in other videogames, they do not truly define the character because they would require too much plot ramifications, so they're there to have mostly immediate consequences (there are exceptions of course). But, as said, I would need more to elevate them as truly relevant and central. I would need Kian's choice to not kill to affect every other approach he has to his self from that point on. Instead that doesn't happen.
Instead Kian carries on sticking to his character which is a man of action. He has been ever since we first saw him and he is until the very end.
Zoe does have a character arc but in my opinion it is mild, not strong. The vary last scenes when she truly wakes up and finally uses her powers: that was a long time coming and it got me quite satisfied. It was a small moment but it was very nice: you could see Zoe thinking for herself...also Abnaxus abode scene was nice.
April...heh...well. Enough said: it's late and I really gotta go to sleep :-D


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#27 bongboy

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 23:01

Sorry for my ignorance: what is a C&C game? (Command & Conquer....omg that was sooooooo long ago °_°)

Choice & Consequence.


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#28 the red of the kin

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 06:38

Choice & Consequence.

 

Thanks, Bongboy!

I think the only true choice and consequence game I've played so far is The Stanley Parable :)


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#29 bongboy

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 07:41

Thanks, Bongboy!

I think the only true choice and consequence game I've played so far is The Stanley Parable :)

Check out Life is Strange. It's a choice and consequence adventure game that was released in five installments, and in that regard, it has a lot in common with DFC. Both are also quite brilliant IMO, but aside from that they're quite different. I highly recommend it.


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#30 the red of the kin

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 10:31

Check out Life is Strange. It's a choice and consequence adventure game that was released in five installments, and in that regard, it has a lot in common with DFC. Both are also quite brilliant IMO, but aside from that they're quite different. I highly recommend it.

 

Thank, man. I played it at the same time of DFC (it ended some months earlier). 
Both games have a choice-consequence system of sort. Usually there is one or two game-changing consequences but they are mainly "contained". For example: Baruti dies, but if he doesn't, he won't have a major role in the last books (in fact he doesn't appear at all I think). I did not try the LiS equivalent (Kate) but I'm sure it's dealt similarly.
Stuff happens but it doesn't fully affect the protagoinst's behaviour.

Mass Effect managed a lot through its 3 games, I think. The Ashley/Kaidan choice, the Wrex choice, the love interests, the paragon/renegade options...pretty cool :)

I cite The Stanley Parable because in this game the protagonist is ....you. And the Narrator reacts differently depending on your choices. An impressive feat where the storyline is identical and yet completely different each time. Mind-blowing.
It would be impossible to insert that into the TLJ saga or Life is Strange, which are fundamentally linear stories.
 


Edited by the red of the kin, 13 October 2016 - 10:32.

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#31 Veen Friend

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 10:41

 
That's the beauty of being a community: everybody's got a point of view and, as long as we're civil, it's great to debate over them!
I remember when Mass Effect 3 was over most people denied stuff and there was a very cool concept going around called "Indoctrination theory" I won't go into details but it basically was players telling Bioware and EA "we don't buy this ending: please make it so this theory becomes the true explanation of what happens".
I sort of feel that way with April's ending because as it is, in my mind it's as if she was just a tool of the balance and nothing more..and she never truly found peace. It's like those "some-times-you-just-have-to-let-go" songs. Sad and depressing really. I should stop talking about this, really :P
 

 

I really like the concept of a collective "indoctrination theory" you mentioned. Nothing wrong about that, as long as it holds water, and it would certainly be true if its collective. Small changes or things could be put into the game later, to clear things out and give the story a better perspective. I think DFC has conceived like an "indoctrination theory" or rather many, and you can find them on this forum. I would also like many to have, to really keep personal theories, so that everybody can try to understand what they personal misses in the complete story. And this could fortunately also end up with some collective theories.

 

Personally, I have an alternative ending for Aprils story in DFC, and it just require a small change to what has already been build in the game through the excellent choices structure. I wont mention it now, but you should really try to see the possibilities with the choices structure, used as a revealing structure also. The after rationalization could add a lot without destroying the concept of the story, just add hidden things, important points or rewards.

 

Keep holding on to what you miss in the story, is my advice. We can pull it out and civilized. :P


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#32 bzzzi

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Posted 03 December 2016 - 23:47

I will go with an idea that Zoe died and Dreamfall Chapters never happened. From 3 games so far this is the weakest in the series. The Longest Journey is one of the best games in the world and any "modern adventure game" can't come even close to that perfection. Dreamfall had very interesting story and could have been even better if there was more gameplay (more complex puzzles) because story by itself isn't enough.

Chapters sounded interesting during kickstarter, but when they started talking about C&C telltale style, after first gameplay's and when they mentioned amneZoia on top of different voice actors I had a bad feeling. Now after it's over I feel that this was one huge missed opportunity to shine:

- amneZoia ruined whole plot, she has some selective memory alright, what the hell, she was well developed character at the end of Dreamfall, now she needed to use all of that knowledge that she learned in storytime between 2 games to fix everything, but instead she is acting like confused contradictory fool, running around, doing stupid things and giving stupid commentary, this stopped plot from progressing and explaining important things

- Kian was useless like almost every side character and out of nowhere he becomes important at the last moment

- Crow was amazing

- I liked mature Saga, she should have been main lead in this game

- in the end nothing crucial for overall TLJ plot didn't happen

- Main villains suck, they were introduced at the end and defeated instantly

- gameplay sucks except few puzzles, "choice and consequences, big usless gaming spaces and voiced thoughts when chosing respnse" also contributed to rushed ending and instant info dump at the end with some outrageous plotholes and badly explained stuff, there was so much trivial chitchat and faul language and instead to that, resources could have been spent doing something that matters

- I noticed that forced sex obsession that was present through game

...

This game was very disappointing, there is so much flaws and I feel that some amateur made it in terms of story and gameplay. And my choice is: Please don't butcher The Longest Journey any further.

THE BALANCE HAS FAILED SHIFTING



#33 LootHunter

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Posted 05 December 2016 - 22:21

THE BALANCE HAS FAILED SHIFTING

Sorry, but while I agree on some of your points, others are strictly not true.

- Kian was useless like almost every side character and out of nowhere he becomes important at the last moment

What now? He was an elite assassin, an apostol and the most trusted man for the Six Empresses.

- in the end nothing crucial for overall TLJ plot didn't happen

Yeah, except entrance of the Saga in major storyline, Zoe becoming the godess (since she absorbed Lux and Nox) and Westhouse retuning to Stark.

- Main villains suck, they were introduced at the end and defeated instantly

Prophet and Klax were introduced as far as in first Dreamfall (well, Klax was actually in TLJ, but he was only fooling around there, not doing something major)



#34 the red of the kin

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 11:09

- in the end nothing crucial for overall TLJ plot didn't happen
Yeah, except entrance of the Saga in major storyline, Zoe becoming the godess (since she absorbed Lux and Nox) and Westhouse retuning to Stark.

 
Since when Zoe becomes a goddess? The Azadi goddess? Where is that explained in the game? In book 4 I speculated she would become the Azadi goddess but let it go when book 5 came out.
 

- Main villains suck, they were introduced at the end and defeated instantly
Prophet and Klax were introduced as far as in first Dreamfall (well, Klax was actually in TLJ, but he was only fooling around there, not doing something major)


Klacks and Westhouse are introduced as far as TLJ, the first videogame, but they are revealed as villains only in book 5 of the last videogame.
 

I think what Veen Friend meant to say is we almost never see them acting like villains until the very end.
Let's draw a quick parallel with Star Wars. In SW ep. 4 and 5 you see the emperor once or maybe twice. So the viewer thinks focuses on Vader but knows there is a puppeteer behind him. in SW ep. 1 2 and 3 you always see the "emperor" but he's nor revealed. He seems like a side character up unitl SW ep 3.
Once you know what was going on and you watch again all movies it...may or may not work...but that's the way it was presented and that's very close if not the same as in TLJ.

sooo...as far as villains go, Klacks and Westhouse were not (properly) introduced until book 5.
I'm totally cool with it ^__^


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#35 Pawlo_86

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 09:40

Roper Klacks seem to be the only vilian who knew what really happend. He made a pact with Undreaming and April's death was a deal. Brian Westhouse, Azadi, Helena Chang and even WATIcorp were all played by Undreaming.

#36 LootHunter

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 06:27

 
Since when Zoe becomes a goddess? The Azadi goddess? Where is that explained in the game? In book 4 I speculated she would become the Azadi goddess but let it go when book 5 came out.

Well, we know that Azadi religion has two major entities - Goddess of Light and The Shadow. For me it's simple math: Light and Shadow - primal forces of creation and destruction; Lux and Nox (Undreaming) - primal forces of creation and destruction. Ergo Lux and Nox are Azadi's Light and Shadow (athough, probably Azadi don't have a clue what they are actually worshipping). And since Zoe takes Lux (and Nox) place in "dreaming the world" she technically is now both Azadi's deities.


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#37 the red of the kin

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 19:32

Well, we know that Azadi religion has two major entities - Goddess of Light and The Shadow. For me it's simple math: Light and Shadow - primal forces of creation and destruction; Lux and Nox (Undreaming) - primal forces of creation and destruction. Ergo Lux and Nox are Azadi's Light and Shadow (athough, probably Azadi don't have a clue what they are actually worshipping). And since Zoe takes Lux (and Nox) place in "dreaming the world" she technically is now both Azadi's deities.


ah ok: it's a speculation...an educated guess.
As I was saying, I too thought she might be, but in the end Saga is the only one who stays with the Azadi.

I did not recall about the "shadow". thanks for the info! ^_^

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#38 conundra

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 18:12

 
Since when Zoe becomes a goddess? The Azadi goddess? Where is that explained in the game? In book 4 I speculated she would become the Azadi goddess but let it go when book 5 came out.
 


Klacks and Westhouse are introduced as far as TLJ, the first videogame, but they are revealed as villains only in book 5 of the last videogame.
 

I think what Veen Friend meant to say is we almost never see them acting like villains until the very end.
Let's draw a quick parallel with Star Wars. In SW ep. 4 and 5 you see the emperor once or maybe twice. So the viewer thinks focuses on Vader but knows there is a puppeteer behind him. in SW ep. 1 2 and 3 you always see the "emperor" but he's nor revealed. He seems like a side character up unitl SW ep 3.
Once you know what was going on and you watch again all movies it...may or may not work...but that's the way it was presented and that's very close if not the same as in TLJ.

sooo...as far as villains go, Klacks and Westhouse were not (properly) introduced until book 5.
I'm totally cool with it ^__^

 

In TLJ, Roper Klacks is a villain to April. He wasn't the major villain like Jacob McAllen but he evolved to become one in DFC. There are a lot of characters in DFC & there are several who are unsuspectingly villains. Mother Uttana for one is the most surprising. 

 

 

Reading SpringEternals post, I feel the same in lots of things. I miss April & was hoping she is still alive. But that is not how the story goes. It seems like the whole game has the theme of the soul which doesn't have a physical body but can continue to live on in others. April completed her role in TLJ but she didn't survive through DFC but it was continued by Saga who did help to bring peace in Arcadia. 

 

Saw same pattern with Brian. Again, the Undreaming took possession of his soul and controlled him. I thought he is an innocent victim  :megatear:  & I hope he still is. He was completely innocent & full of curiosity when he entered the monastery. I hope that he is back to himself after Lux left him. 

 

Zoe has a similar experience in where she can consciously be somewhere else (Arcadia) while her physical body stays in Stark.  

 

I kinda hope that TLJ gets a remake. It would be great to play April with crow in updated graphics.  :ehehe:  



#39 Pawlo_86

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 14:13

In Book Five it was told that Westhouse controlled Undreaming to return home. My guess is that Cortez and monks send Brian with a mission (maybe to re-unite Undreaming with Dreaming ) but Brian failed and became Prophet and killer of magicals.

#40 LootHunter

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 19:24

My guess is that Cortez and monks send Brian with a mission (maybe to re-unite Undreaming with Dreaming ) but Brian failed and became Prophet and killer of magicals.

The thing is that Biran didn't know about the Undreaming, so basically Cortez had set him up anyway.






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