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Roper Klax and Brian Westhouse - characters inconsistency.

spoilers TLJ Dreamfall Dreamfall Chapters

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#1 LootHunter

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 20:05

After I've played all three games, I was somewhat frustrated by changes in these two characters. And I am not talking just about making them ultimate antagonists (that was actually cool turn), but their personality change.

 

Klax is more prominent example. In Dreamfall: TLJ he is shown as jolly yet somewhat unscrupulous tout, who nevertheless admires April and thankful to her (otherwise why did he gave her potions for free?). And he also willingly gave her his book (for selfish purposes, but nevertheless).

In Dreamfall: Chapters, however, he is shown to have quite a grudge against April. And while you can say that he could had it, but just consealed it, the problem is that in Chapters he is unable to do so.

 

My opinion is that Klax in Dreamfall is more consistent with TLJ, because in first game he was more of a jokester than some scheming mastermind. His story, how he managed to escape calculator by himself is also fits better - in TLJ he was terrible at math, so had indeed to learn some, otherwise he couldn't become operator for Dream Engine. Also his jolly (D:TLJ) version would also fit his role in Chapters - he was cruel jokester in TLJ, not cruel in Dreamfall after being reformed, and returned to cruelty after azadi took away his magic shop.

 

As for Westhouse it's quite strange for him to wish to return home after in TLJ he learned how his world had changed. On the other hand in Dreamfall:TLJ he says that he visited Asadir and his visit was "very educating". So it would be more consistent if he was going to destroy magic not becaus he was going back home, but because in Azadir he turned into azadi religion and began to hate magic.

 

Also I don't quite understand, how he could be connected to Chang's research. She began it 30 years before Chapters, thus almost 20 years before The Longest Journey. Did Westhouse been in contact with her at the time he was drinking and running away from Mercuria? Not quite convincing.

 

So, what do you think of all that? Did I miss something?



#2 magic88889

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 20:36

About Klacks.  Didn't Abnaxus call him wizard of lies or something like that?  It would stand to reason that the guy is an accomplished actor and can make people believe things.  The silly incompetent oaf we met in TLJ, the 'reformed' man we met in DF both strike me as masks.  The TLJ version never fit because he was clearly very competent.  He had devastated the surrounding area.  People were clearly afraid of him.   He had real power.  And yet, we were presented with kind of a buffoon.  It was funny, but didn't really ever sit right with me.

And then in DF, I never bought that he was reformed.  If I remember correctly, I don't think April really did either.  Why would a man who was obsessed with gaining power suddenly give it up?  That change never made sense to me either.

 

For me, the additional details and history provided by DFC actually make Klacks as a character make more sense.  The fact that we once had real power as the Necromancer King, and then later lost it, regained it with the Soul Stone, and then lost it again.  It makes sense that he would work with Brian to gain power once again, and that his actions and motivations across the series make a lot of sense.

 

As for Brian, I think there are some holes there.  He was under the influence of the Undreaming, but as you say, the timing doesn't quite work.  Although to be fair, I don't think Chang's initial research required Brian to be involved, and at some point he contacted her and started using the consequences of her research to his own ends.


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#3 the red of the kin

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 08:16

My opinion is that Klax in Dreamfall is more consistent with TLJ, because in first game he was more of a jokester than some scheming mastermind. His story, how he managed to escape calculator by himself is also fits better - in TLJ he was terrible at math, so had indeed to learn some, otherwise he couldn't become operator for Dream Engine. Also his jolly (D:TLJ) version would also fit his role in Chapters - he was cruel jokester in TLJ, not cruel in Dreamfall after being reformed, and returned to cruelty after azadi took away his magic shop.

 
I agree. His character arc is very wobbly.
TLJ -> D:TLJ
It makes sense for him to make a transition from evil alchemist to reformed merchant. It would have made a lot of sense for him to make a transition from evil alchemist of...evil alchemist in hiding.
that is because when you get to Dreamfall Chapters and he pulls out that conversation with Zoe...
I mean...sure: one can say he was being nice with April to put a facade...but then I'm, missing in D:TLJ at least 1 second where I can see that...I don't know: a monologue? It's otherwise difficult to buy.
And I remember quite a lot of conversation on this forum where me and others were hoping he's not the prophet because he's just too much of a goof ball.
Sure: there's also the shard of Undreaming inside him, but that to me is more hocus pocus stuff than anything else...that is my problem, though.

As for Westhouse it's quite strange for him to wish to return home after in TLJ he learned how his world had changed. On the other hand in Dreamfall:TLJ he says that he visited Asadir and his visit was "very educating". So it would be more consistent if he was going to destroy magic not becaus he was going back home, but because in Azadir he turned into azadi religion and began to hate magic.

 
Westhouse was always an enigmatic character. Drunk the first time we saw him...a Stark man in Arcadia? We didn't quite know how he got there but we know he didn't care to go back and he couldn't even if he wanted to.
But that's something I can still dig, even after Dreamfall Chapters. That's because of all the explanation given, which was well placed and hinted throughout the games. We get to know he pretty much didn't have the strenght of will to do anything when April first sees him. But when she's sees him last in TLJ he's changed. Stopped drinking and..he's got a plan. He0s going to be an 'explorer'. Then when we meet him again in D:TLJ he looks very happy and talks about his trip veeery vaguely. He was the one "educating", we now know. An airship all for himself? Quite interesting, no?

I buy his character arc and think it was subtle but not so subtle at the same time. He was mysterious but he also seemed friendly so in the end when we see him for what he was and, most importantly, why he was that evil we're surprised but we also have compassion. The poor man had to succumb to the Evil inside him.

Also I don't quite understand, how he could be connected to Chang's research. She began it 30 years before Chapters, thus almost 20 years before The Longest Journey. Did Westhouse been in contact with her at the time he was drinking and running away from Mercuria? Not quite convincing.


That's when I too am at a loss. There should have been more hints to this connection. Remember those pipes below propast and how Zoe's hands were fading while she was walking with Hannah? I was like "yeah! Now we get to understand how they connect the two worlds and make shit happen!"...but it was never quite shown (or maybe I didn't quite get it?) so how to communicate? How to build a coalition with Chang?
One clue is clear: Chang sent her experiment girls in Arcadia, I think. Zoe wasn't the first one right? Maybe that's how Brian got in touch with her?
Speculation in fun but pretty useless: the game needed a scene where this would be made crystal clear.
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#4 the red of the kin

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 08:27

The silly incompetent oaf we met in TLJ, the 'reformed' man we met in DF both strike me as masks.
The TLJ version never fit because he was clearly very competent.  He had devastated the surrounding area.  People were clearly afraid of him.   He had real power.  And yet, we were presented with kind of a buffoon.  It was funny, but didn't really ever sit right with me.


All good and well but ...motivation is what I need.
Why put on a mask of silly incompetent in TLJ? I'm not saying I won't believe it: I'm sayig the portrait is incomplete. I need his motivations for behaving that way and deciding to loose to a calculator.

And then in DF, I never bought that he was reformed.  If I remember correctly, I don't think April really did either.  Why would a man who was obsessed with gaining power suddenly give it up?  That change never made sense to me either.


You definitely have a point here. I didn't quite buy it either but he still looked very silly...not convincing as a villain.

For me, the additional details and history provided by DFC actually make Klacks as a character make more sense.  The fact that we once had real power as the Necromancer King, and then later lost it, regained it with the Soul Stone, and then lost it again.  It makes sense that he would work with Brian to gain power once again, and that his actions and motivations across the series make a lot of sense.


When you write it down it makes sense but when I read Necromancer King I don't think about Klacks. I know it's him because I was being told by abnaxus and many others but when I look at his character and his actions throughout the saga I just don't see it.

As for Brian, I think there are some holes there.  He was under the influence of the Undreaming, but as you say, the timing doesn't quite work.  Although to be fair, I don't think Chang's initial research required Brian to be involved, and at some point he contacted her and started using the consequences of her research to his own ends.


This could very well be :)
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#5 Indrid Cold

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 09:33

I mostly agree about Brian, that his change doesn't make sense entirely.

 

On Klacks though: I never saw him as incompetent in TLJ. Incompetent in calculations, sure, but he seemed to be very successful as an evil alchemist. He was kind of a funny character because of how much he was amused by himself, but that doesn't make it incompetent.

In DF I was also convinced by his change of character, and when we saw him again in DFC I thought it was strange that he openly disliked April. Then I played DF again and I noticed some tiny clues that he wasn't entirely honest. I sadly don't remember them all but I thought one of them was how happily he talked about "The adventures of April Rye-bread". I think there was another thing that could be considered a clue.

 

In short, I still don't get how Brian went from "Besides, this place is all the home I know now. What does your world have to offer me?" to "I'm going to kill every bloody non-human person in this world if it will get me back home". But after a replay of the "trilogy", Klacks makes sense to me now.


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#6 Riaise

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 13:17

 One clue is clear: Chang sent her experiment girls in Arcadia, I think. Zoe wasn't the first one right? Maybe that's how Brian got in touch with her?

 

No, I'm pretty sure Zoë was the first. Then Hanna, then Hope, and then Faith. We know that Zoë, Hanna and Faith all remained in Stark, but we don't know what happened to Hope.



#7 the red of the kin

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 14:18

No, I'm pretty sure Zoë was the first. Then Hanna, then Hope, and then Faith. We know that Zoë, Hanna and Faith all remained in Stark, but we don't know what happened to Hope.


If they never could go to Arcadia then it's hard to 'compute' how Chang got in contact with Brian. Who knows: maybe one day we'll get the missing piece of the puzzle. It'd be awesome. I still hope in TLJ:home ;)
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#8 Ringtail

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 14:51

If they never could go to Arcadia then it's hard to 'compute' how Chang got in contact with Brian. Who knows: maybe one day we'll get the missing piece of the puzzle. It'd be awesome. I still hope in TLJ:home ;)


I suspect (without any direct proof) that if Dreamfall's sequel would have been made immediately after Dreamfall, the answer would have been that Sam Gilmore from WATI was an Azadi Shifter. She and Sister Sahya share more than a passing resemblance. But I suspect this is a thing that got rethought and changed in the 8-year gap.
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#9 Riaise

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 20:41

Just had a thought as I was replying to the other thread about Hope...what if she's the girl outside Roper Klacks' Fingerlings tent? Helena could have been making her dream herself across to Arcadia to communicate with Brian, which would also explain how the girl knows so much about the "shadows" (or whatever she says, I can't remember exactly) inside Klacks.


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#10 LootHunter

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 13:51

Thanks for your answers. I agree that Klax in TLJ and D:TLJ could be just disguises for rather cunning villian and his inability to act in Chapters was due too long exposue to Undreaming (and a lot of stress with azadi hunting everyone connected to magic).

What doesn't fit however, that in his "Fingerlings" play he portraied himself as good character. If he was evil and remained (or became again) evil, than he should be proud of hes mischief. And (in my opinion) would consider April as a worthy adversary. Also making warlock an evil character would not provoke azadi and their supporters.

 

As for how Westhouse and Chang could communicate, I think that Westhouse could reach to her in her dreams. If I remember correctly Cortez said that even ordinary people can see Arcadia in dreams. So you don't need to be a Shifter or a Dreamer to come in contact with arcadians, especially if they have magical power.


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#11 the red of the kin

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 18:07

As for how Westhouse and Chang could communicate, I think that Westhouse could reach to her in her dreams. If I remember correctly Cortez said that even ordinary people can see Arcadia in dreams. So you don't need to be a Shifter or a Dreamer to come in contact with arcadians, especially if they have magical power.


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#12 conundra

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 11:25

Klacks was a powerful wizard in TLJ and having all of his powers and castle taken away would be very devastating for someone once so powerful. I think he was never reformed. He simply tried to adapt to his situation and he kind of long for getting back his glory. 

 

As for Brian, he became suspicious in Dreamfall but still I cannot understand the role of Cortez in this. Cortez was the one who brought Brian into Arcadia. Brian was completely unaware that a horrible force will take him. I am kinda disappointed that nothing else is being told about Brian. At the end of chapters it seems he is just forgotten. What happened to Brian? 

 

So he was simply the carrier of the dark side of Lux, a puppet to create the chaos and propel the world to unite? 



#13 Ragnar

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 13:48

Klax is more prominent example. In Dreamfall: TLJ he is shown as jolly yet somewhat unscrupulous tout, who nevertheless admires April and thankful to her (otherwise why did he gave her potions for free?). And he also willingly gave her his book (for selfish purposes, but nevertheless).

In Dreamfall: Chapters, however, he is shown to have quite a grudge against April. And while you can say that he could had it, but just consealed it, the problem is that in Chapters he is unable to do so.

 

In Dreamfall the First, Klacks hides behind a mask. He has to play a role and appear harmless — especially to April. I always thought players would see through that thin veneer of sincerity into his dark heart, and unravel the truth: I'm very surprised so few did: it was, perhaps, too subtle. But in my mind, Klacks would never be able to forgive April for taking everything from him.


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#14 Ragnar

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 13:51

I suspect (without any direct proof) that if Dreamfall's sequel would have been made immediately after Dreamfall, the answer would have been that Sam Gilmore from WATI was an Azadi Shifter. She and Sister Sahya share more than a passing resemblance. But I suspect this is a thing that got rethought and changed in the 8-year gap.

 

Gilmore did play a bigger part in the story; Queenie, too — along with WATI's founder (there is a reference to that story at the very, very end). We simply didn't have time to address everything in episodes four and five, even though dialogue was written and recorded. We wanted to focus on the heart and soul of the story: the journeys of Zoë, April, Kian.


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#15 Ragnar

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 13:58

As for Brian, I think there are some holes there.  He was under the influence of the Undreaming, but as you say, the timing doesn't quite work.  Although to be fair, I don't think Chang's initial research required Brian to be involved, and at some point he contacted her and started using the consequences of her research to his own ends.

 

The timing was mapped out; we didn't have time to lay it all out in Book Five. And while there might still be holes — telling a story over twenty years carries that risk — Brian's journey played out the way we envisioned it. We do like leaving some room for speculation and theory-crafting, however, and some discrepancies between the games are by design. This is a story about stories, and stories are subjective. Always consider the narrator's point of view.


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#16 Ragnar

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 14:00

As for Brian, he became suspicious in Dreamfall but still I cannot understand the role of Cortez in this. Cortez was the one who brought Brian into Arcadia. Brian was completely unaware that a horrible force will take him. I am kinda disappointed that nothing else is being told about Brian. At the end of chapters it seems he is just forgotten. What happened to Brian? 

 

So he was simply the carrier of the dark side of Lux, a puppet to create the chaos and propel the world to unite? 

 

No — but this game wasn't really about Brian and his story, or about Cortez and the other Kin. If there's ever a TLJH, you'll learn more.


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#17 Pawlo_86

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 14:59

The connection between Brian and Helena is rushed and unexplained. The nature of Undreaming is another mystery.

#18 Ringtail

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 17:04

Gilmore did play a bigger part in the story; Queenie, too — along with WATI's founder (there is a reference to that story at the very, very end). We simply didn't have time to address everything in episodes four and five, even though dialogue was written and recorded. We wanted to focus on the heart and soul of the story: the journeys of Zoë, April, Kian.


<record scratch>
Written and recorded?!?!?

#BookofSecretsBookofSecretsBookof TotalTotalSecrets
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#19 Pawlo_86

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 18:03

<record scratch>
Written and recorded?!?!?
#BookofSecretsBookofSecretsBookof TotalTotalSecrets


Complete Edition/The Final Cut.
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#20 the red of the kin

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 12:59

If there's ever a TLJH, you'll learn more.

 

Good!This means there is still a chance! I knew I could hold on to some Hope!


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