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Now that it's done: the Good, the Bad


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#41 the red of the kin

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 10:24

I must do no such thing. Also, I feel that this is off-topic. I don't really care what anyone believes or doesn't believe. All that maters is TLJ canon, and that's the only thing to which I speak. If you really want to have that other conversation, it's for another time and place. The fact of the matter is that DFC invokes "divine intervention", which is nothing more than ignorant terrorists claiming that their view of the universe is correct and that they have the right to rape, torture and murder everyone who says otherwise.

 

Then I fully agree with you. ^_^


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#42 magic88889

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 10:30

Einstein believed we lived in a deterministic universe, that everything was pre-determined and with enough data, you could predict every event ever.  A lot of scientists did, because that's how physics works: cause and effect.  Of course, our current understanding of Quantum Physics seems to indicate that this is false, that there is in fact no way to have that kind of data, that cause and effect don't really exist (or at lest not as we commonly think of it).  However, a lot of people believe this, and it has absolutely nothing to do with religion. 

 

But even now, the debate on this is ongoing.  Prominent scientists like Stephen Hawking believe in a deterministic universe of sorts.  We don't have an answer right now, but really, really smart people believe in it.


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#43 the red of the kin

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 12:02

Scientists usually don't believe in an answer. They might have a theory and work towards it.

Anyway Hawking's determinism doesn't concern fate in a spiritual/religious sense, but the way our bodies work. Free will to him doesn't exist, but not because of a god or song-lines. Instead it's because we are biological machines.

 

But you're right: this is an ongoing debate and it will stay that way for some more time.

 

Anyway what I think some people (me including) didn't like about Saga's role in the events if how she never questioned what she was doing. She openly stated this is how the story goes and they all must play their part. So it's not so much the what but the how.


Edited by the red of the kin, 20 October 2016 - 16:21.

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#44 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 14:34

Just a gentle reminder that, while we love these sorts of thoughtful discussions about big topics, if we could try to avoid the sorts of sweeping / inflammatory statements that could be misconstrued as  (or perhaps are actually meant as) an attack on, say, all religious people or all atheists or what-have-you, that would be great. Thank you. 


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#45 the red of the kin

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 16:22

Just a gentle reminder that, while we love these sorts of thoughtful discussions about big topics, if we could try to avoid the sorts of sweeping / inflammatory statements that could be misconstrued as  (or perhaps are actually meant as) an attack on, say, all religious people or all atheists or what-have-you, that would be great. Thank you. 

 

Yeah you're right: it's a very sensitive matter :-/


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#46 LootHunter

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 18:51

Still, there's all this nonsense about "fate"

I'm sorry, but can you remind me, where in Dreamfall Chapters concept of fate is introduced? The only moment about it, I can remember, was Saga's explaination to Kian about how Saga found and resqued him, but there were actually three choices there - to tell that it was fate, that it was Saga's magic and it was chance. If I remember that correctly.



#47 Indrid Cold

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 18:54

I'm sorry, but can you remind me, where in Dreamfall Chapters concept of fate is introduced? The only moment about it, I can remember, was Saga's explaination to Kian about how Saga found and resqued him, but there were actually three choices there - to tell that it was fate, that it was Saga's magic and it was chance. If I remember that correctly.

I'm quite certain she was talking about a prophecy earlier, that said she must do these things (it's how she knew what items to take). I think she was just talking to herself at that time.



#48 LootHunter

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 21:03

I'm quite certain she was talking about a prophecy earlier, that said she must do these things (it's how she knew what items to take). I think she was just talking to herself at that time.

Yes, I remember that. But you see, that was not fate. At least not in that determenistical sense that bongboy despises so much. When Saga gets inside the Engine, she has to use spatula to stop the gears. But she could also try to go through without. Still she won't do that, because she says that gears will probably grind her and thus prophecy of her saving Kian won't be fulfilled. If I remember that correctly, she says that you can't just rely on prophecies and fate and assume that everything is determined.



#49 bongboy

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 23:10

Saga keeps saying things like, "This is what happens because it's what was written." I take that to mean that she's talking about fate or divine intervention. Perhaps there's something else it can be called, but she certainly is under the impression that her actions have been pre-destined, or however you want to put it.


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#50 Shift

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Posted 21 October 2016 - 07:12

Saga keeps saying things like, "This is what happens because it's what was written." I take that to mean that she's talking about fate or divine intervention. Perhaps there's something else it can be called, but she certainly is under the impression that her actions have been pre-destined, or however you want to put it.

More like a rule of time travel. Saga can apparently choose to exist at pretty much any point in time in any number of universes. However, as in Doctor Who, once a series of events is recorded as happening a particular way in a timeline, it has to happen that way in that timeline.


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#51 the red of the kin

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Posted 21 October 2016 - 10:05

More like a rule of time travel. Saga can apparently choose to exist at pretty much any point in time in any number of universes. 


I hope that's not the case for otherwise she would have let Brian do his thing for hundreds of years, since he was possessed by the Undreaming. Lots of magicals died because of him.


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#52 Riaise

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Posted 21 October 2016 - 13:32

She can't just pop up wherever she likes, she has to follow the Songlines. If there were no Songlines going to Arcadia in the time that Brian was the Prophet, then there was nothing that Saga could do.

 

Something else to think about, back in TLJ Abnaxus mentions that he can see many futures, not all of which will come to pass. So perhaps there are many pre-determined paths but we will only ever go down one of them. Maybe the prophecies give Saga an idea of which path is the "best" one, but things can still go differently depending on the choices that individual characters make.


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#53 Mr_Russ

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Posted 21 October 2016 - 14:36

Oooh - destinic forks!

 

Multiple grey paths. Only one becomes black once it's been chosen.


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#54 Vanya-illin

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 18:34

She can't just pop up wherever she likes, she has to follow the Songlines. If there were no Songlines going to Arcadia in the time that Brian was the Prophet, then there was nothing that Saga could do.

 

Something else to think about, back in TLJ Abnaxus mentions that he can see many futures, not all of which will come to pass. So perhaps there are many pre-determined paths but we will only ever go down one of them. Maybe the prophecies give Saga an idea of which path is the "best" one, but things can still go differently depending on the choices that individual characters make.

Yes, this is the model of "prophecy" that I figured was really at work: picking the best outcome available and working on making it happen. You can also see this in Wen Spencer's Elfhome novels; you can load the dice toward some outcomes, but too much knowledge by a direct actor can derail the intended result.

 

About Doctor Who and "fixed events in history": I had the impression that they were not so much things that it was literally impossible to change, but that the long term downside consequences absolutely swamped any possible "good" that might result from tampering. Not that this would stop the truly malign/insane from trying it.. So maybe it really is "impossible" (or not worth the effort because paradox would block you at every turn...)


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#55 othertomperson

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 03:20

Generally speaking this game is phenomenal. I really loved my time with it. There are just a couple of niggling things that prevented me from enjoying it as much as possible,

 

Firstly: Brian's story arc makes no sense whatsoever. I never trusted him from the start, I always found him smarmy, but even in retrospect I cannot fathom his motivations given things he's done and said across all three games.

 

Secondly: performance. There was no reason for my framerate to drop as low as 22 fps in Book 5 as Kian, and 30 towards the fountain in Marcuria. I have a very high end machine. My CPU is an i7 3960X overclocked to 4.5GHz and my GPU is GTX 1080 SLI. There's no reason for the fps drops I was experiencing on this tier of hardware.



#56 the red of the kin

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 06:57

Something else to think about, back in TLJ Abnaxus mentions that he can see many futures, not all of which will come to pass. So perhaps there are many pre-determined paths but we will only ever go down one of them. 

 
Abnaxus is like Yoda. We love him because he's wise and deeply in touch with the force/balance...but he's not a "god". He knows stuff but not all of it.
He shows Lux to Zoe but doesn't tell her exactly how to get to Lux.
 

Maybe the prophecies give Saga an idea of which path is the "best" one, but things can still go differently depending on the choices that individual characters make.

 
Saga has seen how things will go and is you look at her "acting" you realize she's sure things will go one way. She steps in and veers events towards that way, by telling all the major players exactly what to do. Very different approach than Abnaxus.

 

It's a dilemma: if you've read a prophecy that reveals your and other people's role as pawns to "save the world" would you follow it and renounce your "free will"?
Even more of a dilemma it's a burden, a tragedy. living all your life knowing you're a puppet in the hands of a higher power of sort....

 

...anyway Uncle Galath is David Bowie and you guys know it :P
;-)


Edited by the red of the kin, 25 October 2016 - 06:58.

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#57 magic88889

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 09:25

First, Abnaxus explains why he couldn't tell Zoe how to get to Lux.  Had to do with communicating through dreams.  If I remember right, he basically said it was like a bad connection.  Had to keep the message simple and to the point, in fear that too much would be lost.

Also, he clearly knows more than he's said about events. 

 

And Saga doesn't exactly know everything.  Especially in the scene where she's holding open the shift (which is unlike any shift we've ever seen I might add), she clearly doesn't know exactly how things are supposed to unfold.  Only that the people have to talk to each other in order for things to turn out right.  She doesn't give them the solution because the doesn't know it.

 

 

Anyway, my take on prophecy is that it's not fixed in stone.  People always have a choice.  But the prophecy depicts people who would naturally choose to do those things, because of who they are and the circumstances they are in.  There's that chance they might do something different, but they probably won't.  Knowing about the prophecy might change things, but probably not in this case.

 

There's also an idea that a prophecy is nothing more than wishful thinking.  It simply gives the conditions of what must happen in order to have a given outcome.  There are plenty of other possible outcomes, each equally likely, but depending on what people choose to do.  This way you can actually have more than one prophecy about a given event.  The good guys would have theirs, and the bad guys would have another.  In this case knowing the prophecy in the first place is almost required for it to come true.



#58 the red of the kin

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 07:36

First, Abnaxus explains why he couldn't tell Zoe how to get to Lux.  Had to do with communicating through dreams.  If I remember right, he basically said it was like a bad connection.  Had to keep the message simple and to the point, in fear that too much would be lost.
Also, he clearly knows more than he's said about events.


Well we all know how Abnaxus can be obscure... even when he's outside dreams ;-D
When playing the parts with him I got the usual vague hints at stuff that will happen. He does point out he doesn't see everything. But I agree: he clearly know more than he says (that's also very Yoda-like ;-) ).

Hey...one question comes to mind...I forgot...why is Abnaxus not in Marcuria anymore? Was it solely for the purpose of attending to Lux? I honestly forgot.
 

And Saga doesn't exactly know everything.  Especially in the scene where she's holding open the shift (which is unlike any shift we've ever seen I might add), she clearly doesn't know exactly how things are supposed to unfold.  Only that the people have to talk to each other in order for things to turn out right.  She doesn't give them the solution because the doesn't know it.


I'm sure Saga doesn't know every minutia, but she looks as sure as a zealot. 
1. she prepares a potion to cure Kian well before he's even stabbed
2. she has the tools to solve the engine puzzle (even points out how she came prepared)
3. she tells Kian she's running short on time and opens the shift (she has a tight schedule to follow, ergo she knows what will happen)
4. she introduces the characters of Kian and Zoe to each other -> she knows them and the fact they're supposed to talk.
5. when Zoe asks her how she knows stuff she replies it's how the story has been written ...and that it can't be changed
6. and we know how she will explain to Kian his and her role in the future

True: she doesn't say or know the specifics of the moment (I was wrong in my previous post) but she still knows how the story goes and all the major events. She knows exactly where to be and what to do.
 

Anyway, my take on prophecy is that it's not fixed in stone.  People always have a choice.  But the prophecy depicts people who would naturally choose to do those things, because of who they are and the circumstances they are in.  There's that chance they might do something different, but they probably won't.  Knowing about the prophecy might change things, but probably not in this case.
 
There's also an idea that a prophecy is nothing more than wishful thinking.  It simply gives the conditions of what must happen in order to have a given outcome.  There are plenty of other possible outcomes, each equally likely, but depending on what people choose to do.  This way you can actually have more than one prophecy about a given event.  The good guys would have theirs, and the bad guys would have another.  In this case knowing the prophecy in the first place is almost required for it to come true.

 

I like your thoughts on this matter.
 

Prophecies are tricky. when I saw the Star Wars prequels I knew how Anakin would turn to the dark side, at some point (SPOILEEEERS! :D)... so some of the "magic" was already gone.
The less of you know the better, because when you know too much...everything becomes mechanical, artificial, pointless.


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#59 Indrid Cold

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 08:52

Hey...one question comes to mind...I forgot...why is Abnaxus not in Marcuria anymore? Was it solely for the purpose of attending to Lux? I honestly forgot.

From what I remember, in TLJ he left to return to his family and be with them during the "veil" (the moment even the Venar couldn't see past, which was terrifying for them). 11 years later, he's the last of his people remaining in the physical plane, and apparently he stayed behind to speak to Zoë.


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#60 the red of the kin

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 13:33

From what I remember, in TLJ he left to return to his family and be with them during the "veil" (the moment even the Venar couldn't see past, which was terrifying for them). 11 years later, he's the last of his people remaining in the physical plane, and apparently he stayed behind to speak to Zoë.

 

Thanks, Indrid!


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