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Now that it's done: the Good, the Bad


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#21 bongboy

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 07:45

well...to be fair...

To say a "house is unbound to time" sound as sci-fi or magic as saying "April travelled in time". But the games do speak for themselves: April clearly doesn't travel through time, at least not willingly.

 

Saga is April reborn and she knows April will show up.

Saga does perceive the passing of time. In fact: 
1. she knows she will die (and we've watched her whole life in the course of 5 books)
2. she says that it's not really a circle but more like a spiral
I think the last one means time does go in circles but it's got a beginning and it's set to end.

That implies a preset path (which echoes through time) and a divine providence at work. The strongest clue is Saga knowing everything that's bound to happen because of song-lines. 

 

My point of view is...if the house truly was unbound to time, the it wouldn't have been built by Magnus and Etta and/or Saga would have no age...or maybe she wouldn't age while in the house. So: time does not affect the house but the house and its inhabitants did have a beginning and will have an end. Time is a spiral.

poetry: this is where this game shines!

Yeah... umm... what about the part where they clearly spelled out in exactly as many words that the house of all worlds is unbound from time? Shall we just pretend that it didn't happen because we don't like it or don't understand it? There were precious few things that Ragnar and Dag went way out of their way to make extremely clear throughout the TLJ saga, and this was one of them.



#22 magic88889

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 08:37

But Red it right, the house and the people in it do experience time passing.  The HoAW exists in Storytime, or at least adjacent to it.  So it exists apart from the rest of the universe, as all worlds are created in Storytime.  Through Songlines, the house can be temporarily connected to any world and any time in that world.  In this sense it is unbound from time, or at least time as experienced by people not living in the House.

 

The interesting thing is, that for Saga at lest, even throughout her journeys, time in the House always goes forward.  Like, she never comes back to a point before she left it.  It's always sometime after.  She doesn't seem to have much control on how much time passes in the House while she's out, but it always goes forward. 



#23 bongboy

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 08:50

But Red it right, the house and the people in it do experience time passing.  The HoAW exists in Storytime, or at least adjacent to it.  So it exists apart from the rest of the universe, as all worlds are created in Storytime.  Through Songlines, the house can be temporarily connected to any world and any time in that world.  In this sense it is unbound from time, or at least time as experienced by people not living in the House.

 

The interesting thing is, that for Saga at lest, even throughout her journeys, time in the House always goes forward.  Like, she never comes back to a point before she left it.  It's always sometime after.  She doesn't seem to have much control on how much time passes in the House while she's out, but it always goes forward. 

The house itself is unbound from time, and therefore, whenever anyone is in it, they are also unbound from time. What happens within the house of all worlds is unbound from time. After having spent all that time inside the house of all worlds, Saga could have gone outside of it, but she still would have been a frail, old woman, and when April went back outside of it, she kept being an 18 year old woman. Time is an illusion, and that illusion is not the same inside and outside of a place that is "unstuck from time". April entered the HOAW when she was 18, and she left it when she was 18. It's clear that Saga was quite old when she entered the HOAW for the final time, and it's also clear that none of this matters, as long as April doesn't recognize the reincarnation of Crow. That would force Saga to explain that which she accepts but does not understand, and therefore cannot explain.

 

Personally, I've always hated the concept of a "deus ex machina", and Saga is most definitely that. I've also found the entire concept of fate to be laughably absurd, but this does seem to be the road down which Ragnar and Dag have chosen to go, and I understand and respect it, although I certainly disagree with its premise.



#24 magic88889

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 09:10

If you're right, then the only way anybody from the House gets older is if they are away.  So Saga only ages when she's not in the House.  Except that there is a time that her Dad doesn't let her leave the house.  She sneaks out, yes, but he certainly doesn't leave the house.  And yet, the both get older.  Time has to pass in the House, or this things we observe happening there can't happen.  Plus, I don't know about you, but I'd be hesitant to take my newborn baby out into the world because that's the only way she'll get older.  On that note, how could Saga be born at all?  If no time passes, then things like conception and gestation can't happen either.

 

The House is simply unbound from the time in the Stark/Arcadia world (and possible other worlds as well).  Same as any location that's part of Storytime.  It's just easier to say "unbound from time".  People get what it means without the long explanation of the nature of Storytime and how the universe works.


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#25 bongboy

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 09:59

All I know for a fact is that the writing of the game directly contradicts what you've said. I didn't say that I know why, because I don't. That's for Ragnar and Dag to explain, because they're the ones who went way out of their way to tell us that the HoAW exists outside of time. If you have a problem with the fact that they have made this quite clear, direct your displeasure towards them. Do not, however, attempt to disprove that which has already been established, by saying, "Nuh uh! I Don't like that so it didn't happen!"

 

There's plenty about this saga that I don't understand and/or don't like and or/don't accept, but that doesn't stop me from being open-minded or from being wrong. At least I'm thinking outside the box, and that's not nothing.



#26 Lee-m

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 12:59

All I know for a fact is that the writing of the game directly contradicts what you've said.

No, it didn't. What Magic88889 wrote is perfectly correct imo. Time passes in the house, the people in it age, and the laws of physics do not stop or become frozen in time.

Everything else is hidden with a bunch of literary nonsense terms like 'unstuck from time', 'Songlines' and other such stuff.
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#27 Mr_Russ

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 14:46

Time can pass at different rates as at the event horizon of a black hole.

 

Saga ages in The House of all Worlds. it's just relatively different from the world outside it.



#28 the red of the kin

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 15:26

Yeah... umm... what about the part where they clearly spelled out in exactly as many words that the house of all worlds is unbound from time? Shall we just pretend that it didn't happen because we don't like it or don't understand it? There were precious few things that Ragnar and Dag went way out of their way to make extremely clear throughout the TLJ saga, and this was one of them.

 
What about it? I agree: it is unbound from time...
just..time passes by inside it: so it also is bound...

 

 

Saga ages in the House as her father did before her. You can see grey hair when he looks for her and we all know how adamant he was about staying in the house.

Well in the end I think this is one of those concept where there's only so much logic one can use....and there's very little indeed! If we would know for sure that the Universe of TLJ was dreamt by Lux then the whole concept of time and space in that universe wouldn't really matter ..or would be bound by Lux's dream (and then the whole "who dreamt Lux" thing). 

I'm not saying it's "mumbo jumbo" (how racist, Red! Bad boy!). It's a cute concept and I've toyed many times with it too! But it only holds up as long as it stays blurry, in my opinion.
I remember a cool concept in some Stargate episode where they talk about a space-time bubble. Within it space and time is linear, but travels at a different pace than the outside. In our case, though, time within it would be linear but there would be no pace to relate to: only "songlines" would connect the House to the rest of the universe.

Mind-blowing for sure! That's why I like it.

 

[EDIT]: I was unsure if when or where and I wrote "whenre"..omg I'm getting Abnaxious!


Edited by the red of the kin, 19 October 2016 - 15:32.

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#29 LootHunter

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 19:03

Excuse me, but I don't see the point in argueing terminology.

 

My objection was to

human-like creatures (even those with strong magic) are constrained by linear tracks in terms of riding though time...

 

I think this is simple textbook paradox, an unresolved problem of a time traveler sci-fi story which was not an integral part of the games

Young April meets old Saga in The Longest Journey and in Dreamfall Chapters (in fact it's the very same event shown in both games). So whatever explanation is it was the same from the first game. Dreamfall Chapters havn't add any plotholes.



#30 Lee-m

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 20:42

 Dreamfall Chapters havn't add any plotholes.

It has quite a few. The above just isn't one of them.



#31 kla622

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 20:59

Personally, I've always hated the concept of a "deus ex machina", and Saga is most definitely that. I've also found the entire concept of fate to be laughably absurd, but this does seem to be the road down which Ragnar and Dag have chosen to go, and I understand and respect it, although I certainly disagree with its premise.

 

I see why many are saying that, but I would like to point out that Saga is actually sort of a complete inverse of a deus ex machina IMHO. A deus ex machina is a sudden and unexpected introduction of a plot device or character, which abruptly solves a problem that seems unsolvable - usually occuring when the writer can't find any other way to bring the story to a conclusion. But it's not like Saga was invented because the writers couldn't come up with any better way to save the dying Kian and they quickly introduced a mystical and extratemporal (is that a word?) being to solve the plot. There could have been a dozen of other ways to save Kian (or not have him seriously injured at all), and likewise, Saga's other main contribution to the endgame - allowing communication between Stark and Arcadia through the Shift - could also have been carried out in a different way, e.g. through Zoe dreaming herself to the other side or whatever. But we actually expected Saga to finally get involved in the main story, we expected her to have a significant contribution, because from the start, her arc was a core part of the game, even if didn't relate to any other plotlines.

 

It seems quite obious that the concept of Saga was one of the fundamental ideas Ragnar&co had for the game, they wanted to include this House of All Worlds - Songlines - Multiverse stuff, not to mention the April reincarnation and the answer to the Lady Alvane mystery. But for that, they had to come up with a way to actually tie her somehow to the main happenings: therefore, the last Book was writtten the way we have seen. So, instead of a classical deus ex machina, which goes like: "writer writes the story into a corner --> write comes up with a supernatural being to sort it all out", we are dealing with a case of "writer wants to include a supernatural being in his story --> write has to write some stuff that she can sort out, to make her a part of the story", the exact opposite.

 

Now, we could argue how seamless this introduction of Saga was into the main plot - I didn't really mind it (maybe because most of the Saga stuff was so strong, I felt), though I'm definitely not a huge fan of this prescribed destiny thing either (although I liked the way how they connected the old phrase of Lady Alvane, "and that's how the story goes", to that). But I think.it is a bit unfair to the writers to call this a deus ex machina.



#32 bongboy

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 21:18

No, it didn't. What Magic88889 wrote is perfectly correct imo. Time passes in the house, the people in it age, and the laws of physics do not stop or become frozen in time.

Everything else is hidden with a bunch of literary nonsense terms like 'unstuck from time', 'Songlines' and other such stuff.

Yes, time passes in the house. This has nothing to do with the fact that it was clearly stated that the house itself is unstuck from time. You can call it nonsense all you want, and you may even be correct, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a work of fiction, in which it's been stated flat-out that the house is unstuck from time. This is how April meets Saga. They don't meet in a place that's in the past or in the future; they meet in a place that's outside of time. This was clearly stated.



#33 magic88889

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 22:17

But the phrase doesn't tell the whole story.  Because the House clearly has a past, present, and a future.  Time affects things in the house.  It's just separate from time in the Twin Worlds.  Brian was the one who was truly unstuck from time.  Time didn't pass for him.  He didn't age, and yet the universe around him went on it's merry way. 

 

Now that I'm thinking about it, are you sure the phrase "unstuck from time" was about the house, and not Brian?  According to the Wiki, the House is descrived by Lady Alvane as "this place is Between, and Everywhere," which is completely different than "unstuck from time".  I'll have to look at the relevant scenes again when I get a change.



#34 bongboy

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 06:44

But the phrase doesn't tell the whole story.  Because the House clearly has a past, present, and a future.  Time affects things in the house.  It's just separate from time in the Twin Worlds.  Brian was the one who was truly unstuck from time.  Time didn't pass for him.  He didn't age, and yet the universe around him went on it's merry way. 

 

Now that I'm thinking about it, are you sure the phrase "unstuck from time" was about the house, and not Brian?  According to the Wiki, the House is descrived by Lady Alvane as "this place is Between, and Everywhere," which is completely different than "unstuck from time".  I'll have to look at the relevant scenes again when I get a change.

Brian mentioned that he was unstuck from time. What I'm referencing is Magnus and Etta discussing how the house is outside of time. I forget the exact phrasing, but I took it to mean that people can enter the house from any time and when they exit the house, they can go to any time, as long as a songline takes them to or from the house. What happens inside the house is separate. My understanding is that April traveled from 2209 to the house, which is not in any actual year, and when she left the house, she went back to 2209. While she was there, she met Saga, who is a future version of her reincarnated, but she didn't actually travel into the future when she met her, nor did she travel back to the past when she left the house. It's all quite confusing, but the relevant lines, if memory serves, were spoken by Magnus and Etta. I don't remember if it was during the first interlude, or if it was during the flashbacks when teen Saga disables the wards.


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#35 the red of the kin

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 08:32

 They don't meet in a place that's in the past or in the future; they meet in a place that's outside of time. This was clearly stated.

 

They meet in the future, since Saga is April reborn, which implies April must have already died to meet Saga


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#36 magic88889

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 08:55

Ok, I think I know where we're missing something.  I think we're getting stuck on inadequate terminology, as often happens when discussing time travel of any sort.  It might be easier to think of this like Doctor Who.  Think of the House as the Tardis.  It can connect to any point in time and space, but it is kept separate, in it's own little bubble.  So when April enters the Tardis, she's not really traveling in time, but entering the alternate dimension that the interior of the Tardis exists as.  Sure, she meets a future version of herself, but she didn't really go time traveling.  She just entered the Tardis, whose current time has no connection to where she came from. 

Now if April then left the Tardis at a different point, then she would be time traveling.  But she went back to the same point she left, so no time travel.  So it might be better to say that April traveled through alternate dimensions.  Except that doesn't exactly fit either, as the House isn't so much another dimension but rather outside the Dream.

 

....I'm not sure that really helped clear anything up now that I look at it.  :unsure:


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#37 the red of the kin

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 09:33

A deus ex machina is a sudden and unexpected introduction of a plot device or character, which abruptly solves a problem that seems unsolvable - usually occuring when the writer can't find any other way to bring the story to a conclusion.


I think everything except the very last part about the author fits Saga's description. No one knows who she is until she gest there at the last half hour of game...and this plot device doesn't necessarily mean the author can't come up with any better idea, especially in Ragnar's case ;)
 

(...) because from the start, her arc was a core part of the game, even if didn't relate to any other plotlines.

 
That's where I don't agree with you. I saw Saga grow up for 4 books but all I knew is she could shift and there was 90% probability she "is" April. Her father never told her about Kian and Kian was never told about Saga...much less about April. 
 

It seems quite obious that the concept of Saga was one of the fundamental ideas Ragnar&co had for the game, they wanted to include this House of All Worlds - Songlines - Multiverse stuff, not to mention the April reincarnation and the answer to the Lady Alvane mystery. But for that, they had to come up with a way to actually tie her somehow to the main happenings: therefore, the last Book was writtten the way we have seen.

 
mmmh I don't usually bring in what the writer wanted to communicate to justify the presence of a plot device: I only observed what the story tells.
To me the dynamics are pretty much the same as a Deus Ex Machina with the only exception the the player gets to play the "behind the scenes".
While it is often frowned upon, this plot device can be quite useful to bring the viewer to more important parts of the story. I think in a fantasy/sci-fi story it makes sense but in this case it was imposed a bit strogly.

and I like my protagonists to have free will ;-)


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#38 bongboy

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 09:52

I've never paid attention to Doctor Who, but the theory which has been expressed seems more than reasonably possible. As to the assertion that the Deus Ex Machina is somehow the opposite... well, this is correct on some level. It appears that it was always planned in advance, and yet it manifests as something that REALLY seems like a Deus Ex Machina. So it's a fake-out, I guess. Still, there's all this nonsense about "fate", which is an extremely childish concept which is only recognized by everyone who doesn't have enough common sense to realize that human beings have free will, and therefore the entire concept of "fate" is laughably infantile blather.

 

"Fate" dictates that if I do or say something, I was always meant to do or say it, and if I don't do or say it, I was always meant to not do or say it. How laughably asinine. Of course there's always a choice. Even when the choice is obvious and one of the two options is not an option to you, you still have a choice, and therefore "fate" is bullshit. "It always had to happen because it was written" is laughably absurd, and I'm embarrassed that otherwise brilliant writers such as Ragnar and Dag chose to evoke the concept of "fate", and as a direct result, created a character who has no explanation. Her existence has no explanation, her actions have no explanation. Her powers have no explanation. And no one even attempted to explain any of this. It was just, "Hey, there's this young woman who does shit and who knows why and why should you care? It's just the way we wrote it, and we can't be bothered to explain it. We intentionally squandered the first four books, so now we have no choice but to say, "Oh, this happened because it was always meant to happen. There's no actual reason for it. We're just copping out because we bit off more than we can chew."



#39 the red of the kin

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 09:54

I've never paid attention to Doctor Who, but the theory which has been expressed seems more than reasonably possible. As to the assertion that the Deus Ex Machina is somehow the opposite... well, this is correct on some level. It appears that it was always planned in advance, and yet it manifests as something that REALLY seems like a Deus Ex Machina. So it's a fake-out, I guess. Still, there's all this nonsense about "fate", which is an extremely childish concept which is only recognized by everyone who doesn't have enough common sense to realize that human beings have common sense, and therefore "fate" is laughably infantile blather.

 

While in principle I agree with you, we must also pay respect to all religious people who believe in God and fate (divine provvidence)


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#40 bongboy

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 10:06

While in principle I agree with you, we must also pay respect to all religious people who believe in God and fate (divine provvidence)

I must do no such thing. Also, I feel that this is off-topic. I don't really care what anyone believes or doesn't believe. All that maters is TLJ canon, and that's the only thing to which I speak. If you really want to have that other conversation, it's for another time and place. The fact of the matter is that DFC invokes "divine intervention", which is nothing more than ignorant terrorists claiming that their view of the universe is correct and that they have the right to rape, torture and murder everyone who says otherwise.






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