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#21 Sophia

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 01:32

Being a very simple and uncomplicated happily married woman (to a man), I always assumed that gays, just like the rest of us, wouldn't automatically fancy a bonk with the first person they met who happens to be of the same persuasion. But what do I know ;)


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#22 bongboy

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 01:34

Being a very simple and uncomplicated happily married woman (to a man), I always assumed that gays, just like the rest of us, wouldn't automatically fancy a bonk with the first person they met who happens to be of the same persuasion. But what do I know ;)

This is because you are an intelligent, mature person who is capable of rational thought regarding the subject. Sadly, plenty of people aren't, so they decide to create ignorant stereotypes.


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#23 the red of the kin

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 06:12

Like, for example, not all of the guards are 100% on board. If you do walk around and listen to all of their conversations, you will fine some who are a little more unsure. Which makes what happens at the end more believable to me.


Ofcourse! I agree too. That's why I pointed out how Kian (the Apostle) is the one who's all about Azadi and the Goddess. If you pay close attention to the way he refers to his culture...he never puts it in question (actually...the talk to Likho is emblematic). While some guards might take orders too zealously or other guards might question said orders like any sane man would, most of them seem to feel pretty good about their society and Kian makes no exception.
He's always about the goddess and her light, even when he becomes a rebel. And the Azadi culture is important to him. When everything is over he doesn't stay with the rebels as, say, April did, but wants to go back to Azadir and "make things right".
And making things right is not changing the culture, but getting rid of all the evil that had taken control of it lately through Brian and Utana.
 

Kian does have something of a crisis of faith, and yes it isn't necessarily so much about suddenly realizing that his entire religion is "wrong" and abandoning it. It's more about coming to a more nuanced view of the world without losing his faith.


no: I don't agree. He's always all about the light of the goddess. I've never seen him question his religion. Ofcourse I might be wrong or have missed something in the videogame, in which case I apologise, but one of the specific reasons I actually dislike his character is he never actually did have a crisis of faith.
The only moment that could go towards it is when he talks to April and realizes how the Azadi occupation might be wrong and magicals might be normal people. But as we've all come know that was the Prophet's doing, not an Azadi culture/religion thing (unless I've completely misunderstood book 5).
Kian has seen something's wrong and the rebels are fighting to set it right but that's not a true crisis of faith. He's considered a traitor not because he truly doesn't believe in the Goddess but because he went against his prime task in Marcuria and realized something fishy's going on. Then he's labelled traitor of the Azadi and of the goddess, sure, but he never looses his faith.
 

Kian's got a lot of baggage when it comes to his culture and upbringing. We see that repeatedly when he catches himself referring to magicals as creatures rather than people and other little things like that.


But isn't that the Prophet's doing? Or were the Azadi always hunting magicals? Didn't Brian decide to eradicate the magicals and assigned to Utana this task?
Come to think of it...it would be interesting to know how the Prophet and Utana managed to convince an entire people to
1) trust the Prophet as a new figure in the Azadi culture
2) think magicals are a bad thing and need to be eradicated
 

So I feel like if you're going to make the argument that because he's so proud of his culture that he should have no problem saying that he's gay, etc, then you could similarly make the argument that he shouldn't feel bad about his bigoted thoughts brought about by his cultural foundation. I just feel like this is all more complicated than you're laying out as far as the relationship between culture, imperialism, religion, "liberation" of other people, etc. goes. To me, that's the whole point of Kian's character. To explore these topics in a way that highlights their complexity.


Sorry again but I have to disagree about this. First of Kian is in fact proud of his culture. To me that is evident in all DF:TLJ and DFC. Again: the Likho scene at the beginning of book 3 is very emblematic, but there are plenty other scenes. And he is very bigoted. To me it's crystal clear thoughout all games up until the very end of book 5 how he's all about the goddess. He's not mindless in that he realizes the Prophet influenced the Azadi but his faith is always as strong as can be and he does everything in the name of the goddess.
It really never occurred to me his character is complex at all.
Sure there's a couple of moments in DF:TLJ where he sees a magical assaulted by an Azadi and realizes that's not right...but, again, that's not true Azadi culture, isn't it? That's the Prophet's doing, isn't it?
 

To sum up my point of view.

These to me could be very complex topics but they're dealt in a very simple way.
"Proud culture gets manipulated by big brother until most proud servant realizes, through eye-opener, what's going on, joins rebels, fights baddie, wins the day and becomes the new ruler."
It works like a charm but I don't see all the nuances you do see. :)


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#24 the red of the kin

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 06:15

I think it's really nice that RTG acknowledges the fact that if two dudes are gay and are friends, it doesn't automatically mean they're doing it.


You are so right!
At one point I thought they were truly going to get together (airship) but I'm glad they didn't...just too awkward!
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#25 Starseeker

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 11:51

I apologise for being offtopic, but why Kian's crisis of faith should necessarily have something to do with his religion? The core of the Azadi problem lies not in their religion itself, but in religion being misused by people to manipulate other people. So Kian doesn't have to question his faith, but the rightfullness of what his nation is doing to others.

 

That's the Prophet's doing, isn't it?

 

I'm not so sure about that. Weren't Azadi the ones who were responsible for Dolmari plague? To me it seems they had a thing against magicals even before Prophet's arrival. That even partly explains how Brian was able to get them to work for him.

 

These to me could be very complex topics but they're dealt in a very simple way.

 

On that I have to agree. While Dreamfall conveys all the right ideas in regards to social and political matters, the way it's done often feels simplified.

 

About Kian and Likho, I, too, was happy they overcame their hatred and became brothers, but didn't end up together. Since Kian murdered Likho's father, it would have felt very awkward and unrealistic. I don't think such things can be forgiven.


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#26 the red of the kin

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 12:59

I apologise for being offtopic, but why Kian's crisis of faith should necessarily have something to do with his religion? The core of the Azadi problem lies not in their religion itself, but in religion being misused by people to manipulate other people. So Kian doesn't have to question his faith, but the rightfullness of what his nation is doing to others.


Usually a crisis of "faith" involves religion or at least something you very strongly "believe" in. I don't think Kian has any crisis of religious faith and I don't believe he has any crisis in general. He just realizes, at a certain point, that his people is being controlled and doing things that are not right. He often says something along the lines of "this is not the will of the Goddess", which is indeed a religious reference...but I think it's in gest.

I'm not so sure about that. Weren't Azadi the ones who were responsible for Dolmari plague? To me it seems they had a thing against magicals even before Prophet's arrival. That even partly explains how Brian was able to get them to work for him.


The whole point of the Prophet was that he told Utana to deal with the magicals and Utana said she would instate some camps...where later Kian ends up to. There Magicals were deported to, experimented on to create the plague and then killed.

In my opinion it would not make sense Marcurians welcomed the Azadi back at the end of TLJ if they knew Azadi were against magicals, no?

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#27 Starseeker

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 14:43

Usually a crisis of "faith" involves religion

 

Not necessarily, faith is a broader concept. And Kian strongly believed in the will of the Six and in rightfulness of what the Azadi were doing.

 

The whole point of the Prophet was that he told Utana to deal with the magicals and Utana said she would instate some camps...

 

But Utana still wanted to get rid of magicals even after the Prophet was gone... And Sister Alessandra said the plague centuries ago was their doing too. Not to mention Kian didn't have any warm feelings towards magicals before he got to know them better, like it was a part of his upbringing. I think the Azadi feared and despised magicals before the Prophet.

 

In my opinion it would not make sense Marcurians welcomed the Azadi back at the end of TLJ if they knew Azadi were against magicals, no?

 

That's true. But we know very little of what the occupation was like in the beginning. Maybe at first the Azadi were careful not to cause distrust among Marcurians. They didn't state right away they wanted to eradicate magicals, they said they wanted to bring order and to put magic under some regulations, because it's unpredictable and dangerous.  And I can see how Marcurian humans agreed, because even back in TLJ there were those who thought magic was in the way of progress and who weren't very fond of magicals, like Map Merchant or Captain Nebevay.


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#28 toremygg

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 15:02

I know I shouldn't quote myself, but... I feel this post gained and not lost relevance as the books went on... 
 

Likho-Kian fanfic needs to be a retrospective where Likho is watching Kian's burlesque show and reminiscing about their wild youth, before the Balance fell... ;)
 
Edit: probably needs to be written and read before book 4. But art is transitory...


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#29 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 15:10

Okay, it's suddenly becoming increasingly more clear why we view things so differently. :lol: Which is fine. 

 

Yeah, so I think we're conceptualizing "faith" a little bit differently here. 

 

I generally hate draw dictionary definitions into debates, but I think understanding what we mean here is helpful to the debate. There are two different definitions of faith. One is just a strong belief in someone or something. The other has a more religious bent and involves faith in the divine and/or the teachings of a religion, usually definitionally removing the need for "proof" from the equation. 

 

I think Kian's crisis of faith comes from the former and partly the latter. I think these days we're very used to conceptualizing a crisis of faith as involving doubt as to the existence of a deity. But it doesn't have to, and it Kian's case it doesn't. He never loses faith that his Goddess exists or that there are core teachings in his religion that guide his moral compass. He loses faith in / begins to question the leadership of his people, in their system, and in some of the doctrines re: magic. Kinda like how after some of the scandals with the Catholic church, a lot of people didn't lose their faith in God, but they certainly lost their faith in the clergy.

 

The notion of faith (and not in a religious sense) is a central theme in Dreamfall. Starseeker brought this up elsewhere, but way back Ragnar mentioned this model in an interview in relation to Dreamfall and character development for April, Kian, and Zoe. 

 

ragnar-faith-flow.jpg

 

And how this plays into the paths all of the characters have taken has been discussed, so that absolutely shapes my view of things. Though (as I've mentioned elsewhere) I really don't privilege authorial intent over reader response, so if you don't get that at all, that's fine. This helps me make sense of things, but YMMV. 

 

Also, to be honest, it didn't even occur to me that the Prophet was the sole reason behind the Azadi's fear/hatred of magic. I think he turned the dial on it up to 11, but the impression that I got was that it was always there. I'm going to have to dig back through things to see if there are any direct references or if it's just something I inferred for whatever reason. 

 

As far as the Marcurians re: the Azadi occupation, I'm basically with Starseeker on this one. I thought (and I'd need to look up sources here) that the reaction to their arrival was more mixed. Definitely gratitude for fighting off the Tyren, but some were very skeptical because of the Azadi religion / hatred of magic, etc. and that skepticism grew as the initial help turned into an occupation. And that led to the sort of mix of opinions we see in DFC, with some people praising the stability, etc, and others vehemently hating what the Azadi have done to Marcuria. 

 

So yeah. I have a hard time not seeing nuance and a more complicated presentation of complex topics, but that's also likely very much a matter of perspective. As always, YMMV. 

 

 

I know I shouldn't quote myself, but... I feel this post gained and not lost relevance as the books went on... 

 

n2uDOij.gif


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#30 the red of the kin

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 17:59

Not necessarily, faith is a broader concept. And Kian strongly believed in the will of the Six and in rightfulness of what the Azadi were doing.

 
Yeah, that's why I said "Usually a crisis of "faith" involves religion or at least something you very strongly "believe" in. ".
And I agree: Kian definitely beieved and still believes! He never doubted the six, which didn't even know what was going on with the Office of Science.
 

But Utana still wanted to get rid of magicals even after the Prophet was gone... And Sister Alessandra said the plague centuries ago was their doing too. Not to mention Kian didn't have any warm feelings towards magicals before he got to know them better, like it was a part of his upbringing. I think the Azadi feared and despised magicals before the Prophet.

 
Well yeah: that's whay a lot of people are going like "huh...what?" Because we're told that Brian wanted to eradicate magic. Then he tells Utana she must do it and Utana's like "huh...really?...huh ok I guess I'll do concentration camps then". She seems to NOT want to do it. But then she actually states that she will go on with or without the Prophet...as if she would have done it even if he didn't ask her to.

I still need to understand this....it's really not clear at all.

I don't trust whatever Alessandra said, given if there was someone crazy..that was her!
But is she's right...then I just don't get it...I don't understand what kind of culture could promote diversity among themselves but racism against magicals...And why didn't the Marcurians tell them to go away if they always knew they were against magicals?
 
I need more info.
 

That's true. But we know very little of what the occupation was like in the beginning. Maybe at first the Azadi were careful not to cause distrust among Marcurians. They didn't state right away they wanted to eradicate magicals, they said they wanted to bring order and to put magic under some regulations, because it's unpredictable and dangerous.  And I can see how Marcurian humans agreed, because even back in TLJ there were those who thought magic was in the way of progress and who weren't very fond of magicals, like Map Merchant or Captain Nebevay.

 

But I still don't get it. If Kian finds out magicals are beng killed in the camps but his culture's always been about killing Magicals.....what's the point in going against it for him?
And why would a people that waged wars against the Dolmari need to say "oh we're putting all magicals in a ghetto because they interfere with our machine"...Why not slaughter them all as they always did, if as you say it was all about their culture?

My head's spinning: I just don't get this stuff.


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#31 the red of the kin

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 18:11

 

ragnar-faith-flow.jpg

 

 

Loosing faith means that you have to very strongly believe in something. I don't believe in anything, be it religion, society, or unicorns.

I think Kian believes firmly in the Goddess, the Azadi way and so on.
If he truly had a crisis of faith in those two (religious and political) areas, the game, in my opinion, did not show it properly. That's not the message I got.
 

If the Azadi's way was to kill magicals since centuries ago, and Kian realized it was wrong and had a crisis and finally "transformed", he then should have gone to a mission throughout Chapters to try to change his people's ways.
But
The message I got is he found out about Ge'en and realized that people that were "relocated" there were in fact being killed an experimented on...which he said is NOT the Azadi way and NOT the way of the Goddess. So that means to me that he's not having a crisis of faith: he still firmly believes in his people but thinks that SOME of them have gone rogue...

..which is exaclty what he finds out! the 6 don't know about the mass murders.


so I really don't know.

Azadi history 101, anyone? :-D


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#32 Vanya-illin

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 18:57

But Utana still wanted to get rid of magicals even after the Prophet was gone... And Sister Alessandra said the plague centuries ago was their doing too. Not to mention Kian didn't have any warm feelings towards magicals before he got to know them better, like it was a part of his upbringing. I think the Azadi feared and despised magicals before the Prophet.

Actually... no, Sister Alessandra said nothing of the sort. She said that she was trying to mutate the plague that had decimated the Dolmari into killing any person, plant or animal that was touched with magic. I never thought there was any hint of it being artificial, and was surprised to find several posters on the forums so certain that it was an engineered plague.

 

The Azadi certainly had bad relations with magical races. Invading and conquering someone's land and then renaming it "Azadir" (as if it had always been yours!) will go a long way to piss off the (Dolmari) natives. There was, I thought, more than a hint of ethnic cleansing going on there.

 

Whether the Azadi fear of magic was a cause or result of that war is open to question. In Dreamfall, April commented that they were a bit hypocritical about that because their steam machines actually relied on magic to operate. For that matter, I'm pretty sure the Adazi's airships must use some kind of antigravity effect because their balloons are at least a couple orders of magnitude too small for what they can lift.


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#33 Jelena

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 19:04

If you take every opportunity to be nice to Likho and choose to take him with you to Ge'en, you will have the ability to unlock the "intimate moment", during which Likho heavily implies that he is gay.

 

Yeah, I became aware of that after I finished the game and read some comments. I took Likho with me as Kian and my choices brought to them becoming like brothers, so I didn't even know Likho was also gay until I read the comments.



#34 Starseeker

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 19:45

Actually... no, Sister Alessandra said nothing of the sort. She said that she was trying to mutate the plague that had decimated the Dolmari into killing any person, plant or animal that was touched with magic. I never thought there was any hint of it being artificial, and was surprised to find several posters on the forums so certain that it was an engineered plague.

 

Thanks! Then I apologise, I was pretty sure it was engineered, but don't remember why.

 

EDIT:

 

 He never doubted the six, which didn't even know what was going on with the Office of Science.

 

Kian started doubting after he went to Marcuria and met April.

But it seems really strange that the Six and Hami didn't know anything. Utana said "we control the army", so she obviously wasn't working alone and had some powerful supporters. Otherwise she wouldn't have been able to advance with the plan.

 

I wish we knew more about the Azadi society :/

 

She seems to NOT want to do it. But then she actually states that she will go on with or without the Prophet...as if she would have done it even if he didn't ask her to.

 

I found her reaction strange too. Maybe she was shocked with the idea they have to do so much killing, dirty their hands and so on, but then came to terms with it?

 

I don't understand what kind of culture could promote diversity among themselves but racism against magicals...

 

How about them being so religious and at the same time willing to create the world of science and logic? These two usually are the opposites as well. That's the deal with the Azadi, they are a combination of contradictions. Which I find strange, yet quite interesting.

 

But I still don't get it. If Kian finds out magicals are beng killed in the camps but his culture's always been about killing Magicals.....what's the point in going against it for him?

 

Sorry, I didn't mean it to sound like killing magicals is the part of their culture. I wanted to say that fear, hatred and disrespect towards magicals weren't something uncommon for the Azadi.

 

And why would a people that waged wars against the Dolmari need to say "oh we're putting all magicals in a ghetto because they interfere with our machine"...Why not slaughter them all as they always did, if as you say it was all about their culture?

 

Hmm. That's a good question. I can understand why Azadi government or whoever was behind that kept it from civilians in both Marcuria and Azadir: even if people dislike magicals they most likely won't accept mass-murder.

But it's strange they kept it from some part of the army as well. Guards in Marcuria seem to have no idea about the camps, or maybe they suspect something but prefer not to think to much about it. At the same time Azadi army has already killed off the bandu by that time, and not in camps but in their natural habitat. And there are soldiers who work in camps too. And I believe Anna was fully aware of what's going on as well.

 

he then should have gone to a mission throughout Chapters to try to change his people's ways.

 

I thought that was his objective in Azadir after he's finished his business with the resistance.

 

Azadi history 101, anyone? :-D

 

Yeah, that's what we need. I didn't pay much attention to their history ingame and seems like I've missed a lot.


Edited by Starseeker, 29 June 2016 - 20:11.

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#35 Laura

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 19:55

The video made good points. Though I personally really cringed at the "I'm gay!" line he had in the last book. It's just comical. So would it be if it were "I'm straight!" People just proclaiming things like that is just a bit strange. I think that's why the word "gay" isn't used in other games. It can come across as pejorative if other characters use it, and forced if the main character uses it. Who knows, I'm sure it would sound fine in a serious conversation but an exclamation is just hilarious and weird. 

 

I think it would have been brave of them to feature Likho and Kian kissing...no matter your choices (so homophobes can't avoid it.) It seems they purposefully avoided it. Why? They already get criticism for other typically left-leaning themes in the game...they have girls kissing...it seems much more taboo to have guys kissing in video games. Maybe they planned for it and then decided not to after they saw the disgusting homophobia at the very confirmation of his orientation? Oh well, homophobes can just add this to the pile along with other excellent media that they can't enjoy because 1% of it features gay men...shame for them.

 

And I think they should have just removed Anna completely. She added nothing to the game except maybe representing non-magical rebels and as a point for homophobic people to say "he kissed a girl, he can't possibly be gay!!" because they think that claim makes an iota of logical sense, which it doesn't.


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#36 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 21:15

Yeah, I'm not sure about the Azadi engineering the original plague. But regardless, I do think the point remains that Azadi culture is more complicated than just "kill all magicals." 

 

I'm not entirely sure what happened re: the magic that the Azadi themselves posessed. It was referenced in Dreamfall and then not really referenced in Chapters. Na'ane even says in Dreamfall that the Azadi mostly seem to fear what they can't control, so "their" magic that comes from their Goddess (presumably?) isn't a problem, whereas the other magic is an unknown and therefore terrifying and devilish. I kind of conceptualized in in DnD terms... Divine vs. Arcane magic. But this doesn't seem to jive with the events of Chapters. Maybe it was abandoned. Maybe there are some explanations that were cut. Maybe we'll find out more in the supplemental material. Not sure. 

 

Regardless, I do think the difference here is the difference between believing that you are superior because of your culture/religion and wanting to spread what you see as the "correct" beliefs and the wholesale slaughter of an entire people. ...But one can lead to the other, and I think that's a central point in the game. A lot of cultures conceptualize war as being somehow totally different than the rest of society and events. It has different rules. There's a difference between killing a soldier in battle and burning an entire village of civilians to the ground, leaving no one alive. Or is there? Some don't make that distinction. If one leads to the other then where do you draw the line?

 

(EDIT: Just to be clear here, I'm not trying to say that there's moral ambiguity about genocide. Or murder. Or whatever. There absolutely is not. More just trying to highlight the personal struggle of coming to understand that people are using  your beliefs to justify things you find horrifying.) 

 

At the very least, Kian seems to draw a line between "justified" killings, be it war with the Dolmari or being sent by the Six to "convert" the Scorpion,  and the genocide that we see in the camps. That was way to far and he could not believe that those horrors were the will of the Goddess. 

 

So where does that leave us? I feel like that struggle and how we reconcile all of that is basically at the center of Kian's character arc. 

 

Though again, all my perspective here. You're welcome to your own interpretations. 

 

I think it would have been brave of them to feature Likho and Kian kissing...no matter your choices (so homophobes can't avoid it.) It seems they purposefully avoided it. Why? They already get criticism for other typically left-leaning themes in the game...they have girls kissing...it seems much more taboo to have guys kissing in video games. Maybe they planned for it and then decided not to after they saw the disgusting homophobia at the very confirmation of his orientation? Oh well, homophobes can just add this to the pile along with other excellent media that they can't enjoy because 1% of it features gay men...shame for them.

 

In case it is of interest to you... on Steam, RTG basically said they have no issue whatsoever with portraying two men kissing... but Likho and Kian just didn't have that sort of relationship. 

 

From Steam

 

We really appreciate this dialogue and we accept the feedback and criticisms!
 
Rest assured that we have absolutely no qualms about showing men kissing, and there's no stigma or censorship going on — there was just never an opportunity for Kian to kiss anyone else. (His potential relationship with Likho is more brotherly than romantic.) In retrospect, it would have been better to establish his sexuality with more than just words, of course, though that would have required a new character to be introduced…
 
Also, Kian's sexual orientation wasn't shoehorned onto the plot — it was always a part of his character — but we see how it might feel that way to some of you.
 
As for kissing Anna, this was supposed to be more about how Kian is awkward in his interactions with her (and other people) and not knowing how to react or how to behave. Kissing her is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ action ("I'll grant her this one last thing!") and the 'achievement' reflects this. It was never an attempt on our part to appease the anti-gay brigade. We could care less about offending people who don't recognise basic human rights.
 
Great discussion, though, and we're definitely listening!
 
 
...I have mixed feelings about all of that, personally, but at the very least it doesn't seem like they cut some sort of planned romance to avoid backlash. I doubt they would do that and the above post pretty much confirms that. 

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#37 Laura

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 21:36

They didn't have that sort of relationship because RTG wrote it that way and that is their liberty. I agree with others on this thread that posted that the whole background they share would make things difficult. I'm not mad because I'm not invested in the characters' love lives. I really appreciate seeing more diversity and games and I don't feel it was "shoehorned" in but unfortunately I wouldn't give 100% score to RTG on that front but I'm glad they tried. I don't think RTG is homophobic at all. I guess what I am trying to say is that it felt a bit half-hearted for a game that won't get a sequel...

 

Though I disagree that there was no opportunity for Kian to kiss anyone else...they could have made Anna into Adam...or as I said remove Anna completely. I think that's where RTG went wrong here. They could have had the well-done conversations Kian had with Likho about acceptance and orientation, said on social media he was gay for those still with questions, and nothing more and I would have considered that a success. Even though the kiss doesn't take away from him being gay, it muddies the waters for some players. It just should never have existed.

 

At the end of the day, I don't particularly care about seeing a kiss since all kisses could be removed from games and I wouldn't care but I do care about how timid it was that they had to write in a line that said "I'm gay!!" with such awkwardness. If they are willing to go into diversity of sexual orientation, maybe they will go into diversity of how women are portrayed or more diverse races. That is why I care so much. Because sexual orientation does not influence the character as much as giving the character a different background or idea of gender would, so it's always a bit disappointing when even that is not handled that well. And I am yet to see a game that handles these themes that well, so RTG is no exception really.

 

I cringed at the kiss in DF

Spoiler
so maybe I am just easy-to-cringe. ;)


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#38 thelj

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 00:49

They didn't have that sort of relationship because RTG wrote it that way and that is their liberty. I agree with others on this thread that posted that the whole background they share would make things difficult. I'm not mad because I'm not invested in the characters' love lives. I really appreciate seeing more diversity and games and I don't feel it was "shoehorned" in but unfortunately I wouldn't give 100% score to RTG on that front but I'm glad they tried. I don't think RTG is homophobic at all. I guess what I am trying to say is that it felt a bit half-hearted for a game that won't get a sequel...

 

Though I disagree that there was no opportunity for Kian to kiss anyone else...they could have made Anna into Adam...or as I said remove Anna completely. I think that's where RTG went wrong here. They could have had the well-done conversations Kian had with Likho about acceptance and orientation, said on social media he was gay for those still with questions, and nothing more and I would have considered that a success. Even though the kiss doesn't take away from him being gay, it muddies the waters for some players. It just should never have existed.

 

At the end of the day, I don't particularly care about seeing a kiss since all kisses could be removed from games and I wouldn't care but I do care about how timid it was that they had to write in a line that said "I'm gay!!" with such awkwardness. If they are willing to go into diversity of sexual orientation, maybe they will go into diversity of how women are portrayed or more diverse races. That is why I care so much. Because sexual orientation does not influence the character as much as giving the character a different background or idea of gender would, so it's always a bit disappointing when even that is not handled that well. And I am yet to see a game that handles these themes that well, so RTG is no exception really.

 

I cringed at the kiss in DF

Spoiler
so maybe I am just easy-to-cringe. ;)

Very well said. I agree with everything, besides the "i didn't feel it was shoehorned". I felt it was. Fiona and Mickey/Hanna and Abby's inclusion was way more natural.


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#39 the red of the kin

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 15:01

Yeah, I'm not sure about the Azadi engineering the original plague.


It could have been Klacks (thinking about Ge'en's statues of him).

Maybe it was abandoned. Maybe there are some explanations that were cut. Maybe we'll find out more in the supplemental material. Not sure.


I think Ragnar did put all the needed references for us in the 3 games. Right now I'm extremely busy so I can't do the "Gandal in Minas Tirith's Library" thing...but soon I'll dive into it (soon will probably be during fall :P).

Regardless, I do think the difference here is the difference between believing that you are superior because of your culture/religion and wanting to spread what you see as the "correct" beliefs and the wholesale slaughter of an entire people. ...But one can lead to the other, and I think that's a central point in the game.


I so do love talking about this!
And ofcourse I concur.

(EDIT: Just to be clear here, I'm not trying to say that there's moral ambiguity about genocide. Or murder. Or whatever. There absolutely is not.


Life and history have taught me otherwise. While I think I do have high moral standards (i.e. never ever kill people, even if they killed your family: justice should treat everyone equally - I'm strongly against the death penalty because it doesn't teach anything to the murderer). I'm also aware that...genocide has been tolerated so many times during history...and today too! But people's moral values are always dictated by where they were born, their culture. If today in my country Mussolini had won "his war", I'm sure we would celebrate the "liberation from communism and the American oppressors" instead than my beloved "liberation from the Axis" (which btw coincides with my birthday).
Truth is in the eye of the beholder.
I believe in a future when all of the world will be emancipated to realize there's no need for murder. But till then...everything will always be ambiguous.

At the very least, Kian seems to draw a line between "justified" killings, be it war with the Dolmari or being sent by the Six to "convert" the Scorpion,  and the genocide that we see in the camps. That was way to far and he could not believe that those horrors were the will of the Goddess.


yeah, well...talk about ambiguity, right?
This is where morality gets bent and twisted, in my opinion. Kian himself said, after his "rebirth" that he would not kill anyone anymore. But rules are meant to be bent or broken when it come to "means to an end".
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#40 Riaise

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 15:40

It could have been Klacks (thinking about Ge'en's statues of him).

 

Maybe I've understood it wrong, but it seems to me that the original plague was a natural disaster, like the Black Death, rather than engineered. The Office of Scientific Research took strains of the original virus, or bacteria, and mutated it so that they could engineer a second, much more deadly plague. At least that's how I understood it.


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