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#1 Dagget

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 00:16

Not sure what they wanted, they glossed over his balcony talk with Lihko, for example, and went on picking on perceived slights to Kian.

 



#2 DarkPerson

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 11:40

 I think he is mostly over thinking it. But I do agree with the part with Anna.



#3 the red of the kin

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 12:43

This video actually speaks my mind. I've been debating a lot on the Steam forums (the famous "my kian is gay? ok!" thread) trying to make people understand the problem with the narration style adopted for this character. In the end, after playing book 5 and the last kiss option I just gave up on Kian's character ever making sense if not as a mess of a guy who's clearly so clueless the only being he can actually talk frankly to is...a talking bird. Sure very messed up, considering his culture is so pro-gay...


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#4 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 15:26

I'm kind of amused by the fact that on the one hand you have a group of people who feel that the word "gay" is super out of place in the game and then on the other hand you have people who wish they used that term more firmly. 

 

I tend to fall in the latter camp, but that's me. 

 

I'm not skeptical of RTG's motives here, but I do think that this video brings up some valid points and valid criticism. I can sympathize with the creator of the video's feelings and skepticism, though. 

 

I'm glad we got to see Hanna and Abbey have their thing, but I really did want to see more with Kian. 

 

Here's the thing, though... When you are working to be inclusive of generally underrepresented groups in whatever thing you're creating, I feel like it's important to understand that if you do a good job, people are going to examine all of your choices under a microscope and you're going to receive criticism. And not just from bigots or whatever. By definition, there are only a small number of examples of characters from an underrepresented group out there. Which means that everyone looking for that representation is going to try to relate to your character. Some may find it resonates with them, some won't. Some will wish you did one thing, others will be grateful you didn't do that thing. But that's not necessarily because you fucked up. It's because there is no broad spectrum of portrayals of the thing you're portraying, so everyone looks to it to be all of the things people want to see. All you can do is try to take the criticism in stride and do your best to continue to add to the spectrum of representation while all the gaps get filled in. 

 

I find a lot of flaws in way Kian and Anna's relationship develops/is portrayed. But I feel like I've beat that dead horse to a pulp by this point.

 

...I'm still trying to sort out how I feel about Kian and Likho. I really, really wanted there to be an option where something more concrete happened in terms of their relationship taking that turn. So I did feel a lot like this person on twitter

 

 

And while I do take some issue with that, I was fine to just set aside my mild disappointment. ...But then on Steam RTG came out and said some stuff about how their relationship really isn't that way and they're more like brothers and yadda yadda and that's when I felt the "aaaaaaand it was just queer-baiting..." disappointment set in. Granted, at least these characters are pretty firmly cemented in their sexualities, but...still. I'd be lying if I said that wasn't really disappointing for me. 

 

But the thing is, this doesn't make me feel like the game is less good. I'm not mad at RTG. I'm not seriously upset and outraged and all of that business. ...But I do have some criticisms there and I think that's healthy. These conversations are how we make representation better. 

 

 

Oh, and side note re: Kian being a mess - ...I do kinda see your point here, but at the same time it's really hard for me to wrap my mind around some of the reaction to Kian's discussions of his own sexuality. Part of me does wish that RTG had established earlier on that Kian was gay, no interpretation wiggle room, if that was what they wanted to portray. ...But by the same time, like... ...coming out is hella stressful. I'm queer and even some of my super pro-queer friends don't know everything about my identity because either I just haven't felt the need to tell them or it's just... nerve-wracking and difficult and blerg. 

 

With Kian, we have a guy at the intersection of being pretty comfortable with his own sexuality and seeing his identity as no real big deal within his own culture...who is perhaps not particularly interested in pursing any sort of relationship right now because that's just a really low priority for him all things considered.. ...but who is also in a strange land with strange people who are part of a culture that, by all indications, has way more of an issue with homosexuality. I'd be nervous and cagey about it, too

 

There are also so many other factors we don't know in terms of Kian's cultural upbringing, etc. Maybe being gay is no big deal, but the Azadi are really prudish about discussing sex and/or romance. Maybe Kian's upbringing/training as to how to treat a lady is a particular way because of the matriarchal aspects of Azadi culture, but Anna has very different expectations. Maybe a lot of things. (And maybe more of those things should have been firmly established, maybe not, in the end, I really don't know.) 


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#5 Kari2

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 15:47

The problem is that to many people want to view the issue from one vantage point or another. What ever the personal feeling are of Ragnar and the RTG staff, the game has to be more inclusive and will, for that reason alone, be controversial.


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#6 Kari2

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 16:00

Another comment: I liked the treatment of Kian and Likho. I don't think anyone should have to wear a label, gay or straight, because of their sexual preference. I thought that when Kian says to Crow that he is gay, I thought Ragnar was giving in to those who insist on labels.


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#7 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 16:26

I think that idea actually gets to what I was trying to speak to above. 

 

There are different and often contrary opinions out there in the LGBTQ community. Labels is one that can get kind of muddy because you have some people who really feel uncomfortable with labels or prefer not to label themselves or feel that being labeled is being called out or categorized in a way that is really distressing and problematic. 

 

On the other hand, you have people who identify very strongly with a particular label and wear it proudly and want that aspect of their identity to be recognized. Owning that label is a part of coming to terms with their own identity and they may find comfort, validation, and/or community in said label. To those people, refusing to label a character or being coy about aspects of a character's identity can feel like erasure. And even if the creators weren't intending that at all, it can lead to fans erasing that aspect of the story, which can make people who identify with that aspect of the character feel uncomfortable or even invalidated. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, there's nuance here. And there isn't a right or a wrong way to feel. And it's okay to feel one way in one situation and another way in a different one. This is complicated stuff. ...But that's why you're never going to please everyone with one representation, and why having more diverse characters is, in my mind, the only real solution. In a general sense, not necessarily within the scope of this particular work. You don't want to approach diversity with a check list, we just need lots of people creating a variety of characters in a variety of stories. 


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#8 the red of the kin

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 18:15

With Kian, we have a guy at the intersection of being pretty comfortable with his own sexuality and seeing his identity as no real big deal within his own culture...who is perhaps not particularly interested in pursing any sort of relationship right now because that's just a really low priority for him all things considered.. ...but who is also in a strange land with strange people who are part of a culture that, by all indications, has way more of an issue with homosexuality. I'd be nervous and cagey about it, too.


Thanks for this comment, Bob named like a girl ;)

I thought about it over and over and I never spoke it out loud because I didn't want to offend anyone but the parallel is very easy so here I go.

the Azadi are "freeing" Marcuria similarly to Americams "freeing" other countries. And I'm sure we've all seen some documentaries of how Americans are so very respectful of other countries' cultures. Usually they are very confident of their way of life and we can see Azadi are very confident as well (just listen to the guards...)
Kian starts in Dreamfall as a very proud Azadi. The he meets the "Scorpion" and suddently he realizes there are also other "truths" out there. Cool.
But still: he never lets go of the goddess and we see how he really still perceives the Azadi culture as magnificent: he is only concerned of how the Azadi have been manipulated.

That said I think Kian shouldn't have felt like ..."coming out" could be an issue...ever really. If he was a self assured kind of person, he wouldn't have a problem saying he's gay (or whatever the term would be in Azadi's language...Alltongue?) because he's part of the culture that "freed" Marcuria.

That's why in the end I just think he's extremely clumsy and "messed up" in matters of sexual orientation.
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#9 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 18:37

That's fair enough. Also I wouldn't really worry about offending people too much. I mean. We talk about tough/complicated stuff a lot. I like to think we're pretty good about trying to have open conversations and disagreements about those topics, but I'm also probably biased. :P

 

I just feel like there's a lot more complication and nuance here. Though, to me it's also one of those things where everyone's going to see things differently and make have different feelings/experiences based on what all they see and do in the game. 

 

Like, for example, not all of the guards are 100% on board. If you do walk around and listen to all of their conversations, you will fine some who are a little more unsure. Which makes what happens at the end more believable to me. 

 

Kian does have something of a crisis of faith, and yes it isn't necessarily so much about suddenly realizing that his entire religion is "wrong" and abandoning it. It's more about coming to a more nuanced view of the world without losing his faith. 

 

Kian's got a lot of baggage when it comes to his culture and upbringing. We see that repeatedly when he catches himself referring to magicals as creatures rather than people and other little things like that. So I feel like if you're going to make the argument that because he's so proud of his culture that he should have no problem saying that he's gay, etc, then you could similarly make the argument that he shouldn't feel bad about his bigoted thoughts brought about by his cultural foundation. I just feel like this is all more complicated than you're laying out as far as the relationship between culture, imperialism, religion, "liberation" of other people, etc. goes. To me, that's the whole point of Kian's character. To explore these topics in a way that highlights their complexity.

 

That said, in the scene with Likho that the video above doesn't really touch, Kian is pretty firm about a lot of things in terms of his feelings and his culture and homosexuality. He just doesn't use the word. The baggage with the word "gay" is an interesting topic in and of itself, which is I think perhaps more what the person in the video was trying to highlight, but I don't know. 

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the use of the word gay may or may not be related to Kian's comfort level with others. But regardless, I don't think it's weird that he "comes out" the way he does. I'm not trying to say that he's embarrassed or ashamed of his sexuality. It more seems (to me) like he's a.) not terribly concerned with romance right now, so it's not really a pressing topic and b.) playing things a bit closer to the vest just because he doesn't know these people, nods are made to the fact that there may be prejudice against him for it, and his relationship with the rebels is already tenuous because he's an Azadi. Self assurance, confidence, etc. has nothing to do with it, really. 


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#10 Dagget

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 19:00

As for Anna/Alayna, she's had an ongoing somewhat unhealthy fixation on Kian and assumes she can develop an intimate relationship with him, and doesn't pick up on clues to the contrary.  Aside from the one time she initiated a kiss, Kian's always had the choice to pull away or go along with it and, not being comfortable around her, he never tells her he is gay.  All of that seems to me to be a not uncommon scenario in the real world.


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#11 Vainamoinen

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 19:27

By this time, I guess all of us have been overthinking things.

 

We've often touched upon TLJ games expressly not being relationship simulators, and how BioWare-type choices in Chapters kind of influence our expectations about player agency. The fact remains, the protagonists are always very independent people: April, Zoë, Kian and, surprise, Saga. The only person to ever even be in a relationship on-screen is Zoë ... and the emotional reality is that her guy is brainwashed, how great was that.

 

In short, what the youtuber here wanted is what TLJ saga, in my opinion, never rendered and never wanted to.

 

As to the accusation of "hetero love interest for gay man", I stand firm in judging Chapters as a whole. Anna's a mid Book 2 character, and Kian declares that he's gay at the beginning of Book 3. If she's a love interest, she's a love interest for two or three hours in a 20+ hour game. The only thing that irked me was the option of kissing her in Book 5; when we refuse to take that option, we can't know we'd be getting scolded for it; and not all of us play on Steam, where you'd get the douchebag "achievement" and therewith find out how that option was actually meant.

 

So, yeah, that was dangerous territory for RTG to walk into: I don't think the youtube guy is aware of those things.

 

I don't know whether Chapters is targeted at heterosexuals exclusively. I can't say. But I definitely know it's not targeted at men exclusively. And as Erika said already, homosexuals don't just have "one taste". When Rust got heat because it attributed gender and race to players at random, I met a homosexual man in the comment section of a German games website. He said he's entirely against it and that he'd never play as a woman. The more men, the better. In the same vein, I can't see how we would classify Chapters as "gay-baiting" universally.

 

Forgive the comparison, but we weren't "hetero-baited" by the April/Charlie or Zoë/Damien teases: both eventually rendered the same romance reward as the Kian/Likho moment of truth: Zip.


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#12 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 19:54

As for Anna/Alayna, she's had an ongoing somewhat unhealthy fixation on Kian and assumes she can develop an intimate relationship with him, and doesn't pick up on clues to the contrary.  Aside from the one time she initiated a kiss, Kian's always had the choice to pull away or go along with it and, not being comfortable around her, he never tells her he is gay.  All of that seems to me to be a not uncommon scenario in the real world.

 

Yeah... Which is why I kind of wish RTG would have made Kian's orientation unambiguously clear from the start, as that would have really changed how that whole relationship was viewed for a lot of people. I don't know how uncommon parts of that scenario are, but at the very least we have context clues that indicate it could have played out very differently.

 

I'm digressing a bit here, but...I kind of hoped to see more of her character arc fleshed out. It seems like she sort of followed Kian and fixated on him in an unhealthy way. Mother Utana may or may not have taken advantage of that. It seems like she does come into her own a little bit at the end and she essentially gets a "victory" in the form of Vamon (AKA the guy who tried to kill her as a child) getting what's coming to him. But it just... kinda fell a touch flat for me. 

 

I get that she's not the star of the show by any means, but I wish her arc would have been tightened up a bit more. I might have warmed to her more as a character. 

 

By this time, I guess all of us have been overthinking things.

 

We've often touched upon TLJ games expressly not being relationship simulators. The protagonists are independent people, April, Zoë, Kian and, surprise, Saga. The only person to ever even be in a relationship on-screen is Zoë ... and the emotional reality is that her guy is brainwashed, how great was that. What the youtuber here wanted is what TLJ, in my opinion, never rendered.

 

As to the accusation of "hetero love interest for gay man", I stand firm in judging Chapters as a whole. Anna's a mid Book 2 character, and Kian declares that he's gay at the beginning of Book 3. If she's a love interest, she's a love interest for two or three hours in a 20+ hour game. The only thing that irked me was the option of kissing her in Book 5; when we refuse to take that option, we can't know you're getting scolded for it; not all of us play on Steam, not all of us get the douchebag "achievement" and find out how that option was actually meant. So, yeah, that was dangerous territory for RTG to walk into: I don't think the youtube guy is aware of all that.

 

I don't know whether Chapters is targeted at heterosexuals exclusively. I can't say. But I definitely know it's not targeted at men exclusively. And as Erika said already, homosexuals don't just have "one taste". When Rust got heat because it attributed gender and race to players at random, I met a homosexual man in the comment section of a German games website. He said he's entirely against it and that he'd never play as a woman. The more men, the better. In the same vein, I can't see how we would classify Chapters as "gay-baiting" universally.

 

Of course we're going to overthink things. :P That's what fans do. And we've had an abundance of time to overthink everything, so I don't see that stopping now. ;) 

 

The whole relationship with Anna gets muddled and clumsy for a lot of people because Kian's sexuality is revealed slowly. I think the argument being made about her being a "love interest" was less about how feasible of a love interest she is and more about the way these one-sided-because-she-loves-him-but-he's-gay things frequently play out. The clarity of what's going on there is somewhat choice dependent and as we saw when people mentioned that maybe Kian's dialogue with Enu and Likho pointed to him being gay and everyone started shooting it down... ...sometimes people will ignore the signs that point to a character not being heterosexual unless they're draped in neon blinking lights. And even then...

 

I know that RTG wasn't trying to pander to a presumably straight male audience because I know them. I practically live on this forum. I've spoken with the developers. I know that they have diverse people working for them. I know more about their intentions than your average player. 

 

...Without that context, though, I can see how it could feel a little shitty to see the one gay male character in the game really only have romantic banter with a lady. Lesbian relationships are generally more acceptable to a presumed straight male audience for reasons I don't think I need to go into. So seeing Hanna and Abby get their little smooch and then potentially ending up in a situation where there seems to be this "Will-They-Won't-They" tension between Kian and Likho that leads nowhere... ...I'm just saying that I see where that critique is coming from, especially devoid of the context that some of the rest of us have. 


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#13 yodagreen3

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 20:04

My two cents, which may not be worth even two cents. 

There is nothing "sexist" (?)about this game. Then again not everything with the word gay or lesbian in it offends me. Political correctness in our generation could be one of the greatest misfires, backfires of  recent human history. Sometimes it feels like this is a twisted world where political correctness just leads us to question everything and be offended by everything that we question. The right to be offended seems to go hand in hand with the right to  try to reinforce equal rights for everyone. Some times it seems that people are looking to be offended. 
 
It was harmless. The kiss was harmless. So, she was presumptuous, and kissed Kian... Kian didn't have the courage at the time to tell her, hurt her feelings. That doesn't mean that gay characters aren't accepted, it's a realistic look at our own world. Even in our own world the word gay, and in our time, the word gay faces discrimination. 

The character was obviously gay for most the game. They didn't come out and say it at first but it was implied to most people with rudimentary critical thinking skills. The game states that Kian comes from a very accepting society of homosexuality, people who are comfortable with the idea. I think Kian was comfortable expressing his sexuality with his own people naturally...

But... the guy was in prison for several long years and now he's out and about in a whole new world, where not everyone will be as accepting. He doesn't come off that closeted to me in the game, he just seems like a private person. He's tough, around the edges and comes from a past, "world" that many wouldn't understand or accept. So, why should his business be everyone else's? He's a private person.  You don't go around telling people you were a solider in a cruel regime and got April Ryan murdered and that you're gay, so on and so forth unless some one is privileged to that information or you trust them. That's very intimate stuff...

I don't fault a man who was born and raised in a society that completely accepts homosexuality to be uncomfortable sharing that with some one who was never raised in it. Kian is living a whole new life, in essence. It takes a while to adjust, he does it pretty well. 

Kian wasn't open with everyone about his sexuality, does that make him unrelateable? He's from a culture that openly accepts it, that doesn't mean that outsiders do. What business is it theirs what sexuality he is anyways? He's open about his sexuality with many characters, before he bluntly states. "Im gay".  it had nothing to do sexism. But in today's world everything seems to be offensive in some way, everyone is angry about something... and no one has any tolerance for any one anymore.Many who think they are curing us of these conflicts are actually part of the disease. 
 
Political correctness in this country may be mostly an illusion, just another way for people to get hostile towards one another, vent their frustrations and cause conflicts...It's more often that most backwards, because it causes more grief and hatred than it actually cures the world of it... There's nothing outwardly offensive or sexist about Dreamfall Chapters. Of course it's some one's right, individual right to be offended...That's political correctness for you, to hear the screams and anger of others who have been offended by something, to equally respect their opinion. That's fine, as long as you're not incriminating people who have done nothing wrong actually. 

We live in a culture that's hyper sensitive to these issues, where everything must be considered as potentially offensive, even if it wasn't remotely intended to be that way. We live in a very fragile, delicate society because to try to prevent innocent every day scraps, cuts we use cement to cover up the the surface where they may potentially exist and it causes more problems than it actually helps alleviate...It causes more destruction and harm than it actually does good...It's too abrasive...Some would bring a tank, to solve a problem that a paper clip is needed... it actually causes more harm than good...Not everything is offensive... some times it just is what it is... a concept lost by our generation. We seem to look to be offended, just to try to enforce equality. This sensitivity is maybe too far reaching, makes some one too vulnerable when they are always getting offended and labeling everyone as a socially backwards individual. 

I don't think that Kian's situation is unrealistic or un-relateable. 

Dreamfall points out that Kian is gay if that makes them sexist, then my god political correctness has gone wayyyy too far...Kian has a unique situation, very unique. The game doesn't really focus on his sexuality that much. It's not like he's sleeping with every dude he meets or has a real love interest. Calling Anna his love interest is absurd. Some may see her that way, but in reality she's a girl who is infatuated, has a crush on Kian... he obviously doesn't feel the same way. 

People's interpretations of events some times cause them a lot more grief and agony than worth debating, more arguing and getting upset over something than the actual reality of things would ask for...
 
You can just look at the facts, try to understand what some one meant by their actions and statements, before assuming it was offensive or politically incorrect... but our generation isn't very good at these sort of things...People like to make their own in crowd, and their own rules about something and it's usually a power house of intolerance. Have you ever discussed race with some one before? I know I've tried. It usually begins and ends at, "You don't know what it's like." or " You're white, you have no idea." Of course that's a generalization and you can't force that on all minorities. But to assume that everything was inherently politically incorrect and offensive is a bit much too. It's fine to hear everyone out, discuss their opinions, that's healthy...
 
Every generation seems far less capable of handling diverse situations. It's like everyone is looking for something ideal that's not offensive, a Utopian society where no one can be offended by anything ever said, written or done... Political correctness has a created a society that looks for the worse, negative in everything, an angry society, a society that looks to be offended and looks for controversy where one doesn't really exist...Even when there's nothing really to be offended about...
 
Yes, he is gay... I don't think any one meant to offend by his character...I doubt Ragnar sat there dreaming up ways to be politically incorrect. Not everything is black and white...
 
What I see , honestly?? Is a thread with people in it that are so touched by society that they demand that every statement  made about a gay man and his relationships be very closely scrutinized and any statement that doesn't even truly resemble sexism but makes them question if it is in some way sexist... be scrutinize so that they aren't "offended" anymore...This is a very hyper sensitized culture that is trying to heal old wounds by tarring over them... 
 
It's sad honestly when we see these kind of sociopolitical turning us backwards... It's reverse hatred... it's like drinking your own poison... Nothing done in Chapters was likely outwardly meant to be offensive. I don't think Ragnar was innocent or naive, I think people were creating dialogues because they feel they don't have enough of a voice... That's fine... but some times it ends up victimizing the wrong people...
 
Are we to assume that to write the role of a gay man that there's almost nothing we can do to not offend some one? That society is so screwed up that everything we do can be conceived as being  offensive? That's a good way to turn people against one another, to turn your every day person against one another, to hate people you don't even know, assume the worst in them all. So much for political correctness renewing faith in humanity and creating a enlightened society... I am to assume that whatever I say, that when I say it, people are going to be offended over nothing? That's backwards thinking again, to assume that everything I say can or will be turned into a racist statement, that's social programming..that isn't progress, that's like brain washing some one to see everything as sexual in nature, make it into a that's what she said joke...
 
It hasn't helped healed our wounds as a culture, society. People are sore about everything, always looking for the worse in everything, ripping open old wounds, never letting them heal... 
 
Maybe RTG should be offended that they are being excused of being sexist for such an innocent and silly affair and putting what they did and said into a sexist context...Most people are trying their best to be decent human beings weed out sexism and racism.. .most people. I'd say Ragnar is one of them.. It's good to hear your audience and address their concerns but we live in a day and age where this is all too common. 
 
We've created a society, culture where sexism is such a large part of it that soon or later there will be no tolerance left for anyone, and no benefit of the doubt... Political correctness hasn't worked to solve anything in this past decade, it's only made rips and tears in society bleed open. 
 
Our society has become hyper sensitized to sexism, other sociopolitical dramas. Now look at the riots and the world being torn apart because everyone is so angry that there's no room for ACTUAL conversation, dialogues anymore. Just really really angry people. God help us if some one like Trump is elected.

http://redthreadgame...villains/page-1

Ragnar, page one speaking about how some one was offended by the Asian characters of the game...

I think the real people offended most by these sort of  things are those who deal with them on a daily basis. Who have to live with it day to day, to the point where they become hyper sensitized to it. I was abused as a child, so I kind of get that... it made me very insecure, hyper sensitized to it, I saw abuse and offense where it wasn't even given. I'm still a mess... I'm not saying that all people who are offended are being too sensitive or are mental. HAHA That's not what I meant...

It just seems that some times we look for problems, the solution to problems where they don't really exist. Human consciousness is a funny thing, it's sort of abstract , given your mode of perception, experiences and awareness. We're a very creative species whether or not we believe ourselves to be. Some times we invent things that aren't really there or meant to be there.

People just want to have a voice, they deserve to be heard but some times they may demonize the wrong people. Sure we can learn more about people when they share their voice with us but some times I believe were given an unfair shake. Ultimately some of these controversies I've seen over the years have been absurd, hate driven, illogical...unfair... but of course not all of them are.

These issues may not be entirely solvable simply by talking them out. It's going to take time for complete social acceptance from everyone. Hopefully together we'll figure it all out one day. Some times it feels like progress works backwards by invisible threads.

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#14 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 20:36

There is nothing "sexist" (?)about this game.

 

Well, you're the first person to use that word in this conversation, soooo...

 

At the risk of sounding repetitive, I don't really see this as a conversation meant to drag RTG or criticize how "PC" or not they're being or whatever else. 

 

It's just a thoughtful engagement/discussion on the subject of the portrayal of sexuality in the game. And sexuality in media. And culture. It's not about rallying torches and pitchforks. It's just about being more aware of and engaged with the media we consume. Those conversations aren't interesting to everyone and that's fine. (And I feel like if you're looking at the other thread you linked and seeing outrage rather than thoughtful critique, I kinda feel like you're reading it wrong. :/ ) 

 

Sorry, I don't want to be mean or rude or whatever, but like... ...I just get kind of tired of having thoughtful conversation about topics like diversity and inclusion and how we interact with the media we consume...how it makes us feel...what we see reflected in it... provoke criticism about PC/Outrage Culture and Overthinking Media and Looking For Reasons To Be Offended, etc. 


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#15 yodagreen3

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 20:57

Over thinking is rarely not a problem.  :) 

My post was a rant, and I'm ok with everyone resuming the discussion without me. I guess it was something I had on my own chest. My brother is a police officer, so I am well are of many of the social political storms going on right now. There's no real understanding what's happening, it's worse than some would want to know. It's very troubling, and worrisome.  He's always in the middle of sociopolitical affairs. He sees a whole lot of "humanity", that many wouldn't want to see.  Things are very complicated right now. Some things I think can be discussed, understood, assumed... but there's a time and place for everything. 

Some times I just need to vent. I apologize if I've over stepped any bounds. Message me please if I ever post anything inappropriate. I'm not always sure how to vent constructively. Rallying pitch forks hahaa HAHAHAHA ...

I spend a lot of time worrying about these things, some times it just seems the world is just too chaotic, but not everyone is always trying to look where the sun doesn't shine. It's not a bad thing to share your thoughts and feelings about a video game. He has a right to his opinion. Carry on without me, my post was probably more personal and supposed to refer to a larger scale, not just one person. Especially not him or RTG...

All day, every day I used to follow these sort of conversations, debates... but I acknowledge that this isn't that sort of conversation. I can respect that. This isn't a place for me to rant and rave. I have the wrong thread.  :P 

I've dealt with real hatred on a daily basis, people showing pictures of cops with their brains hanging out, saying.. "That's the only good cop!". I admit that I hadn't considered this as a constructive critique, constructive criticism. I should be more open to seeing things that way. 

 



#16 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 21:15

No need to apologize. :P Sorry, I wasn't trying to call you out or say you were being totally out of line. 

 

I think it can be easy for this stuff to become frustrating, regardless of your personal feelings. I hesitate to set it up as a "two sides" dichotomy because I think it's more complicated than that, but yeah. It can get frustrating/exhausting when people are debating something because it feels like everyone's just really upset and needs to calm the hell down. On the other hand, can get frustrating when you're having a debate and it feels like people are making you out to be really offended/outraged, etc. or are dismissing your thoughts as people just over-analyzing/looking for things to complain about. And it's easy to fall on either side of that (or somewhere in the middle), depending on the issue at hand. 

 

But yeah. Don't feel like you can't participate or whatever. And there might have been some projected frustration on my part. I just don't want people getting the impression that these conversations are meant to make RTG out to be terrible or find any little reason to hate on DFC or whatever. 


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#17 bongboy

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 00:23

I'm kind of amused by the fact that on the one hand you have a group of people who feel that the word "gay" is super out of place in the game and then on the other hand you have people who wish they used that term more firmly. 

 

I tend to fall in the latter camp, but that's me. 

 

I'm not skeptical of RTG's motives here, but I do think that this video brings up some valid points and valid criticism. I can sympathize with the creator of the video's feelings and skepticism, though. 

 

I'm glad we got to see Hanna and Abbey have their thing, but I really did want to see more with Kian. 

 

Here's the thing, though... When you are working to be inclusive of generally underrepresented groups in whatever thing you're creating, I feel like it's important to understand that if you do a good job, people are going to examine all of your choices under a microscope and you're going to receive criticism. And not just from bigots or whatever. By definition, there are only a small number of examples of characters from an underrepresented group out there. Which means that everyone looking for that representation is going to try to relate to your character. Some may find it resonates with them, some won't. Some will wish you did one thing, others will be grateful you didn't do that thing. But that's not necessarily because you fucked up. It's because there is no broad spectrum of portrayals of the thing you're portraying, so everyone looks to it to be all of the things people want to see. All you can do is try to take the criticism in stride and do your best to continue to add to the spectrum of representation while all the gaps get filled in. 

 

I find a lot of flaws in way Kian and Anna's relationship develops/is portrayed. But I feel like I've beat that dead horse to a pulp by this point.

 

...I'm still trying to sort out how I feel about Kian and Likho. I really, really wanted there to be an option where something more concrete happened in terms of their relationship taking that turn. So I did feel a lot like this person on twitter

 

 

And while I do take some issue with that, I was fine to just set aside my mild disappointment. ...But then on Steam RTG came out and said some stuff about how their relationship really isn't that way and they're more like brothers and yadda yadda and that's when I felt the "aaaaaaand it was just queer-baiting..." disappointment set in. Granted, at least these characters are pretty firmly cemented in their sexualities, but...still. I'd be lying if I said that wasn't really disappointing for me. 

 

But the thing is, this doesn't make me feel like the game is less good. I'm not mad at RTG. I'm not seriously upset and outraged and all of that business. ...But I do have some criticisms there and I think that's healthy. These conversations are how we make representation better. 

 

 

Oh, and side note re: Kian being a mess - ...I do kinda see your point here, but at the same time it's really hard for me to wrap my mind around some of the reaction to Kian's discussions of his own sexuality. Part of me does wish that RTG had established earlier on that Kian was gay, no interpretation wiggle room, if that was what they wanted to portray. ...But by the same time, like... ...coming out is hella stressful. I'm queer and even some of my super pro-queer friends don't know everything about my identity because either I just haven't felt the need to tell them or it's just... nerve-wracking and difficult and blerg. 

 

With Kian, we have a guy at the intersection of being pretty comfortable with his own sexuality and seeing his identity as no real big deal within his own culture...who is perhaps not particularly interested in pursing any sort of relationship right now because that's just a really low priority for him all things considered.. ...but who is also in a strange land with strange people who are part of a culture that, by all indications, has way more of an issue with homosexuality. I'd be nervous and cagey about it, too

 

There are also so many other factors we don't know in terms of Kian's cultural upbringing, etc. Maybe being gay is no big deal, but the Azadi are really prudish about discussing sex and/or romance. Maybe Kian's upbringing/training as to how to treat a lady is a particular way because of the matriarchal aspects of Azadi culture, but Anna has very different expectations. Maybe a lot of things. (And maybe more of those things should have been firmly established, maybe not, in the end, I really don't know.) 

I had the opposite reaction to it. I think it's really nice that RTG acknowledges the fact that if two dudes are gay and are friends, it doesn't automatically mean they're doing it. I'm bi and I used to have a good friend who's gay, and when he was homeless, I let him stay with me. This led everyone to assume that there automatically had to have been something sexual and/or romantic going on between us, but there wasn't. Our relationship wasn't like that at all; we were good friends and I suppose in a way we considered ourselves to be brothers from other mothers. Zoe had multiple love interests/potential love interests throughout the dreamer cycle, so I really think Kian should have had at least one during that time, but I'm grateful that Likho wasn't him.


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#18 Sarah_Stark

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 00:38

I personally have no great vested interest in seeing Kian and Likho 'get it on' solely because I kinda feel the fact Likho killed his father would kinda come up at the very first argument.

 

More seriously, I do think it's a shame, as Bob said, that Kian's sexuality wasn't made clear far ​far sooner. I'm fairly certain I've made it clear before, but I'm not the ruggedly, strangely alluring hand you see illustrated in my pic, but rather someone who was born male and identifies as female, and is also attracted to women (though the hand is mine, and illustrated by the very hand that's in it - handily).

I've practically zero representation in games, and by-and-large am okay with that because I'm certain that most developers would completely mess it up anyway (clearly an open challenge to any and all developers, but nevermind that). Truth be told the fact I'm left-handed is even more poorly represented, but that's besides the point, and there is one, honest.

 

Anyway. I don't think RTG did a terrible thing with Kian, I just think they misstepped a tad. As said above by myself and others, it could and perhaps should have been disclosed sooner. Laid to rest and the story could have moved on.

 

Of course no two people - whether from a sub-group, majority/minority or whatever are truly alike (don't mention twins and triplets et cetera) because experiences shape us as much as culture, gender, sexuality, race, and so on do. Do I really think Kian would just casually blurt out his sexuality? No. Do I think it would have come up in his internal monologue during Dreamfall? Yes, I honestly do. He talks about April in ways that just don't sit well with him being gay - at least in my eyes. Perhaps others feel differently about how such an intimate thing as a private thought might be.

 

On a more personal note: Most people who'd meet me would probably think I'm part of the entitled 'straight white male' club. I'm 6', white, born male and at this moment am pre-hormones. This makes me acutely aware of how egregious labels and preconceptions can be.

Perhaps - just perhaps - RTG were trying to play on this with Anna and Kian. The idea we all would assume Kian was straight and that Anna would be the love interest. But if that's the case then they've done a disservice, because they created the first red-head I've not liked.

 

As for PC, I have issues with it as well - though perhaps for different reasons. Frank Zappa, as well as Trey Parker/Matt Stone have said something I find interesting when it comes to offending people: It all comes down to if you ever draw a line. If and when you do, everything you've ever said ends up looking as though it's how you really feel, and there's no going back (not their precise words, but the basic gist of it). People will forever assume you really do have issue with one religion or race or whatever if you hold back on someone else.

I think it's sometimes when the smallest hint of insensitivity in something stands out so much and generates so much backlash.

 

With regards to Zappa and Parker/Stone, everyone pretty much goes in expecting someone will be offended - whether themselves of some other group.

For me PC shouldn't be a thing. it's not so much I feel we have the right to be offended, but rather I dislike immensely being told that I should - or shouldn't - be offended. Prime example would be South Park making crude jokes about transpeople doesn't offend me, whereas the episode of Family Guy with Brian and Quagmire's dad transitioning to female did.

 

That being said, I don't think RTG went into the game trying to tick inclusive boxes, or make sure they sat on the PC fence aspiring not to offend. Sometimes offence can raise important - serious - discussion. Even a misstep can do the same. I don't necessarily think the world can ever truly work if every company tries to tick every box because it soon becomes far less about skill or plotting or talent, and much more about a Pokémon-style 'gotta-have-em-all' mentality.

Side-note: I think job applications should be blind. no name or gender on them, just initials and some neutral way to contact you so that the people reading through can't automatically dismiss any for having a female name or one that's 'foreign-sounding'.

 

Not all stories can be that inclusive. A book or film set on the battlefields pre-now will very likely not include women in any role other than 'wife-and/or-girlfriend', a story set in the middle-ages is unlikely to have two people from disparate cultural backgrounds as friends - especially if race is also a dividing line. Fantasy is a great way to bypass those limitations, however, and I think RTG have done a good job (for the most part) using that.

 

Bah, I've rambled all over my keyboard.


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I could of course be very wrong.


#19 Jelena

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 01:07

I had the opposite reaction to it. I think it's really nice that RTG acknowledges the fact that if two dudes are gay and are friends, it doesn't automatically mean they're doing it. I'm bi and I used to have a good friend who's gay, and when he was homeless, I let him stay with me. This led everyone to assume that there automatically had to have been something sexual and/or romantic going on between us, but there wasn't. Our relationship wasn't like that at all; we were good friends and I suppose in a way we considered ourselves to be brothers from other mothers. Zoe had multiple love interests/potential love interests throughout the dreamer cycle, so I really think Kian should have had at least one during that time, but I'm grateful that Likho wasn't him.

 

This is the only comment I can relate to when it comes to Kian and Likho. This is probably because of the choices I've made, but - Likho never told Kian that he's also gay. Kian saying that he's gay was surprising enough, but when I found out that Likho is too if you make certain choices, I was even more surprised. I still kind of don't know what to think about this and if I should even give it too much thought, but it was implied that they developed respect as brothers, so that's how I perceived it. They showed Hanna and the other girl kiss, and they also showed other two gays - Likho and Kian being friends, even though they're both gay. It doesn't surprise me that someone paid attention to this as much, although he does make a valid point from his point of view, but this is also what he was talking about - in the game Kian says that they don't label people that way because they don't make a big deal out of it, it's not even a common subject. In the real world, however, it is one of the most popular subjects and one of the things we make a problem of - THIS is the outcome of him making this video in the first place. He thought it's important to discuss, because it's such a big deal for us, but this even makes it a bigger deal. If we lived the way they do, we wouldn't even talk about it.



#20 bongboy

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 01:20

This is the only comment I can relate to when it comes to Kian and Likho. This is probably because of the choices I've made, but - Likho never told Kian that he's also gay. Kian saying that he's gay was surprising enough, but when I found out that Likho is too if you make certain choices, I was even more surprised. I still kind of don't know what to think about this and if I should even give it too much thought, but it was implied that they developed respect as brothers, so that's how I perceived it. They showed Hanna and the other girl kiss, and they also showed other two gays - Likho and Kian being friends, even though they're both gay. It doesn't surprise me that someone paid attention to this as much, although he does make a valid point from his point of view, but this is also what he was talking about - in the game Kian says that they don't label people that way because they don't make a big deal out of it, it's not even a common subject. In the real world, however, it is one of the most popular subjects and one of the things we make a problem of - THIS is the outcome of him making this video in the first place. He thought it's important to discuss, because it's such a big deal for us, but this even makes it a bigger deal. If we lived the way they do, we wouldn't even talk about it.

If you take every opportunity to be nice to Likho and choose to take him with you to Ge'en, you will have the ability to unlock the "intimate moment", during which Likho heavily implies that he is gay.


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