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April and Saga

April saga connection

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#81 thelj

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 01:30

Her more magical part, the role of the Mother of a future that may still be, her Kinship and her importance not just to Stark and Arcadia but the whole of the Multiverse passed onto Saga. As did her destiny to both save the balance and ultimately destroy it. We assumed that the Veil of which Abnaxus spoke were the events in TLJ, but in Dreamfall Chapters he is still living in the Veil - in fact it's killing him. That might imply that the Veil is more connected with the To April incidental plot of the Undreaming, rather than the Balance.

Abnaxus said the Veil was created in Chaos, by Chaos. During their last meeting he says "the veil is upon us all". I think it's a no brainer that the Chaos in question is the Chaos Vortex. You also mentioned the Veil still affecting Abnaxus during DFC in the other thread. I don't understand where you got that from, and the veil killing him?  :huh:

"I will have stayed behind too long, after my people leave one realm for another. This time is poison. It diminishes me..." ( poor Abnaxus fading to dust, probably the saddest thing in DFC for me). So, Abnaxus living disconnected from his people for a long time, made him sick and he started to fade.

 

* And by the way, is Abnaxus wearing the effing talisman of the Balance, or is it just a knock off?

 

 

So while they're related, Saga has the memories of April in the same way that The New White had the memories of the Old White, without them being the same creature. And April's true spirit, or self, continues to endure in some fashion, in some realm, for some final adventure.

I totally disagree. The NW doesn't simply have the memories of the OW. They're one and the same, the White Dragon, the Mother. When the OM dies, an identical looking creature hatches, the NM. But at the same time, the new creature, aka the White Dragon, aka the Mother is still the same as the previous one, because the Mother is eternal. To put it simply, i see it more like a snake changing skin.

Also, the White in DF is fully aware of her identinty and existence, she knows she's the White Dragon/Mother herself. She's not like: "well, i have these vague memories concerning a white dragon and i feel we have a sort of connection, but i can't quite put my finger on it".

 

So, i don't think it's the same thing with the Saga-April situation.

 

As for April's spirit/soul, isn't it supposed to be merged with Saga, for the reborn thing to work? 



#82 yhal

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 02:00

I totally disagree. The NW doesn't simply have the memories of the OW. They're one and the same, the White Dragon, the Mother. When the OM dies, an identical looking creature hatches, the NM. But at the same time, the new creature, aka the White Dragon, aka the Mother is still the same as the previous one, because the Mother is eternal. To put it simply, i see it more like a snake changing skin.

Also, the White in DF is fully aware of her identinty and existence, she knows she's the White Dragon/Mother herself. She's not like: "well, i have these vague memories concerning a white dragon and i feel we have a sort of connection, but i can't quite put my finger on it".

I do not remember Dreamfall very well but I seem to recall that the NW does not have all the memories and is doing research in Dark People's library to fill the gaps. True, she does not have any doubts regarding her identity. But neither does Crow and this "reincarnation" thing might work differently for magical creations. It is not like there are many White Dragons or Talking Birds around.



#83 thelj

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 03:22

I do not remember Dreamfall very well but I seem to recall that the NW does not have all the memories and is doing research in Dark People's library to fill the gaps. True, she does not have any doubts regarding her identity. But neither does Crow and this "reincarnation" thing might work differently for magical creations. It is not like there are many White Dragons or Talking Birds around.

No, the White doesn't say anything about her memories, she says: "there's so much knowledge here, so much wisdom". I guess she likes to read?  ;)

And why is Crow fully aware of his identity? I mean, maybe he is, but how are you so sure?

 

This is random but, the White before April enters the portal in the library: "Good luck sister, live well. You deserve it. You've earned it". April dies after a few days.  :lol:


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#84 Teller

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 03:38

Sorry didn't read the whole thread, so I don't know all the arguments for and against.  I think it is possible she's still April reborn, and I think it's more than just looks that similar.  Saga has a few of April's personality traits and I think a few of her mannerisms.  Her sarcasm and jokes are definitely spot on.  There were a few times her voice even inflected like April's and I had to double check the credits when it was done.  Maybe they are just "sisters" to the white of the Kin and thus have similarities, but I still like to think it's more than that.


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#85 yhal

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 03:51

No, the White doesn't say anything about her memories, she says: "there's so much knowledge here, so much wisdom". I guess she likes to read?  ;)

And why is Crow fully aware of his identity? I mean, maybe he is, but how are you so sure?

Yeah, I somehow managed to assume that Crow was killed by Westhouse in the library but after rewatching the scene in Storytime there is not enough evidence to suggest that he actually died there. Well, there is  convenient memory loss but maybe his small bird-sized brain just cannot hold that much information :D As a side note, April's "echo" calls him funny bird. Has actual April ever used that nickname?



#86 yodagreen3

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 04:00

He snaps crows neck, that kills most things... :P I thought crow even remembers dying at one point. 



#87 yhal

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 04:06

Sorry, I meant events in Dark People's library. After killing the White Dragon, Brian hits Crow (with Spear of Gorimon?). Crow finds himself on a ship to Sedir without memory of what happened.



#88 Teller

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 04:24

 April's "echo" calls him funny bird. Has actual April ever used that nickname?

I noticed that too.  I don't remember her ever calling him that.  Then again she's related to the white of the kin, right?  So maybe they all join together after death?


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#89 Pawlo_86

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 09:25

According to epiligue of Dreamfall Chapters Lady Alvane remembers only part of April's life - her journey in TLJ but with some details which April didn't know (Undreaning inside Brian, Gribbler as servant of Yaga etc.). She experinced April's journey as vivid dreams. This explans how LA was able to tell April's story to two visitors in TLJ. But this is also another part of mystery. Why LA only remembers April's the longest journey?


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#90 Starseeker

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 10:17

Why LA only remembers April's the longest journey?

 

One more question to add to the grand pile of questions. On the other hand, who ever said that's the only part she remembers? We can conclude that from the drawing puzzle, but that doesn't imply she has no memory of the rest of April's life. It still might be true though, maybe Saga remembers only TLJ, because after that April has lost herself.


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#91 Uzuki

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 14:19

If Saga is really April (And she probably is)... well, I don't understand what Ragnar was trying to say with this storyline.

That if we have a lot of problems we should kill ourself? So we can be reborn, forget all our previous pain and problems and pretend it didn't happen? Because that's what I'm getting from this storyline.

Also she never saw Emma or Charlie again. Amazing.


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#92 the red of the kin

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 18:47

If Saga is really April (And she probably is)... well, I don't understand what Ragnar was trying to say with this storyline.

That if we have a lot of problems we should kill ourself? So we can be reborn, forget all our previous pain and problems and pretend it didn't happen? Because that's what I'm getting from this storyline.

Also she never saw Emma or Charlie again. Amazing.

 

I'm sure that's not Ragnar's message...but I too stumbled on this contraddiction. That's part of why I don't like the rebirth thing (not in the way it's portrayed in this game anyway)


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#93 Uzuki

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 18:59

Yeah, obvious I don't think it's what he was trying to say, but then WHAT was he trying to say? I don't know, you don't know, no one knows anything regarding Saga character other than some vague speculations.

 

All I know is that April had issues, she was trying to face them, then dies and her voice tells me "That's what I wanted. To be free. To be reborn."  Well, that's kinda bananas.



#94 Starseeker

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 22:49

If Saga is really April (And she probably is)... well, I don't understand what Ragnar was trying to say with this storyline.

That if we have a lot of problems we should kill ourself?

 

Someone had to say it sooner or later. And I understand why it may seem that way.

 

But looking at how many players are upset with April's death/"rebirth", I think that getting such strong emotional response from the audience was what RTG aimed at. I mean, they tried to say exactly the opposite - that life is a gift which a person must treasure no matter how hard and painful it might be at times.

 

The thing is April failed to understand that (or maybe she did not, but understanding something and putting it to practice are two different things) and she died, she threw away that precious gift, and lost the opportunity to change her life for the better, while there was still chance to do so. Yes, maybe she tried, or tried to convince herself that she tried, but she didn't believe it was possible, didn't believe there still might be something good for her. Players did, she didn't. Noone can help a person to get through hard times, if that person doesn't think it's possible. And she won't even feel regret for her wasted life now, because she is dead. But those, who live on, will, like would Emma and Charlie, if they learned of what's happened, like probably would Saga, because that's what people do, when they lose someone dear to them.

 

And Saga, while she likely is the same soul, which continues the journey, is a completely different person, with other life, other perception, other problems and other people close to her. She's not April, for April the story is over. And it's both a tragedy and a relief. I mean... if I try to imagine how would I feel if through dreams I remembered my previous life, which was full of mistakes and at the same time of happy memories... I think it would be something like... nostalgia? (EDIT or "hiraeth", yeah, that's the word) Maybe, regret for not doing things differently, and probably saddness for inability to go back, to the person I was, the life I lived and the people I loved, but at the same time I would be happy with what I have in present. A lot of complicated feelings. Come to think of it, one doesn't even need to be dead and reborn to feel that way, it's similar to when one overlooks one's past, like, for example, ingame Zoe. Death just brings it to another level. But at the same time there is a big difference between changing through life and through death. Because death is final.

 

Sorry, I don't know how to explain how I feel about this in better words... Rebirth is comlicated topic.


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#95 yhal

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 23:21

But looking at how many players are upset with April's death/"rebirth", I think that getting such strong emotional response from the audience was what RTG aimed at. I mean, they tried to say exactly the opposite - that life is a gift which a person must treasure no matter how hard and painful it might be at times.

 

The thing is April failed to understand that (or maybe she did not, but understanding something and putting it to practice are two different things) and she died, she threw away that precious gift, and lost the opportunity to change her life for the better, while there was still chance to do so. Yes, maybe she tried, or tried to convince herself that she tried, but she didn't believe it was possible, didn't believe there still might be something good for her. Players did, she didn't. Noone can help a person to get through hard times, if that person doesn't think it's possible. And she won't even feel regret for her wasted life now, because she is dead. But those, who live on, will, like would Emma and Charlie, if they learned of what's happened, like probably would Saga, because that's what people do, when they lose someone dear to them.

It is not like she committed suicide. And if this is the message how did Zoe's journey change anything? If she was supposed to bring hope, give a nudge in the right direction, that plan obviously failed. And if April's death is a lesson to others, it would probably happen anyway. Seems completely pointless. 

 

From plot perspective, April sets Kian on his course. But if this is all there is to it, this is manifestly unfair to her character.


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#96 Dmm

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 00:24

It is not like she committed suicide.

 

No, she committed suicide. It is passive suicide because she made no effort to save herself in that situation. She could have went down fighting or she could have dove into the water. She may not have survived, but it would have shown she still had the desire to live.


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#97 yhal

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 00:43

No, she committed suicide. It is passive suicide because she made no effort to save herself in that situation. She could have went down fighting or she could have dove into the water. She may not have survived, but it would have shown she still had the desire to live.

Hmm. I suppose you are right. That still does not explain what Zoe's role was. To put April in a situation where suicide is likely? This is the opposite of saving.



#98 Starseeker

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 10:59

To put April in a situation where suicide is likely?

 

April fought a war with little care for her life and was eager to go on suicide missions, even other resistance members noted that, so she brought herself there. Zoe saving April must have something to do with her being a Dreamer and witnessing April's death. Why else would the White send her to the swamps? Though, it was never clarified how did that work.

 

Personally I had a feeling, that if April decided to listen to Zoe and work together with her, it might have helped her to change her perspective on life somehow and she might have survived. But on the other hand, after DFC I also had a thought she might have been predestinied to die.

 

Oh, by the way, for those who haven't seen it yet, this interview has a good commentary from Ragnar on April's character in DF and on Faith model overall, in "Dreamfall and Faith" part: https://www.rockpape...reamfall-faith/


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#99 yhal

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 00:46

April fought a war with little care for her life and was eager to go on suicide missions, even other resistance members noted that, so she brought herself there. Zoe saving April must have something to do with her being a Dreamer and witnessing April's death. Why else would the White send her to the swamps? Though, it was never clarified how did that work.

 

Is there anything that was clarified ? :) The conversation between Zoe and "April" in Storytime just makes things more confusing, with "April" speaking in riddles and sounding so unlike real April.
(Sorry - lucidity in writing is not one of my strong points, but hopefully this makes sense :)).

And with Saga/April/White Dragon connection all we can be certain of that Lady Alvane is Saga and that she herself does not know about the nature of that connection. And despite all those interludes we are told very little about Saga's character. For all we know anything could happen during large time intervals in-between. So in interlude 4 we get to play a mysterious woman with no story and no background. April was denied easy answers and was told to get back to her life (or build a new one as the case may be). Saga just follows "songlines" and does things "because it was written".

 

 

Oh, by the way, for those who haven't seen it yet, this interview has a good commentary from Ragnar on April's character in DF and on Faith model overall, in "Dreamfall and Faith" part: https://www.rockpape...reamfall-faith/

 

Thank you, this interview is very interesting. Among other things it explains why April lost and regained her shift abilities at different stages - it has to do with her faith and fears. Few excerpts from there:

 

 

What happened to April right after TLJ is very important. Obviously she didn’t return to her home, and that has something to do with fear as well, which is another aspect of Dreamfall: having too much fear of something, and not being able to move on in life. She has lost faith in herself, in her world, in her friends, and she stayed in Arcadia.

This is probably the piece we are missing here.

 

 

Ragnar: Well, I’m not going to say whether April is alive. But her influence isn’t fully played out. It is her story, all the way through. But Kian has a part and Zoe has a part. Their parts are very important.

It is amusing how things may look different from author's perspective. How many people would agree that Dreamfall is April's story and "Zoe has a part"? :D

 

 

 

Ragnar: That’s true. On the difficulty level, our goal was to make the game very simple. Because, in our analysis, half the people who played TLJ stopped at a certain point during the game because it was quite difficult, and it was quite long. So we said, let’s make it short, let’s make it easy.
...
RPS: Do you think you’re demanding more of your audience than the average game?
Ragnar: Yeah. Absolutely. But I think most games don’t demand enough of the audience. They always underestimate the players’ intelligence.
...
Especially in a story that’s much more complex than I think people are used to. But people get it, and you can be obtuse – people are required to think.


Unrelated to this thread but I so wish his "people are required to think" remark extended to game play.


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#100 thelj

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 01:05

It is amusing how things may look different from author's perspective. How many people would agree that Dreamfall is April's story and "Zoe has a part"? :D

I had totally forgotten about that quote. Jeez...

 

 

Unrelated to this thread but I so wish his "people are required to think" remark extended to game play.

Nice one.  :lol:







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