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April and Saga

April saga connection

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#41 jannar85

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 08:33

Since the discovery of Lady Alvane as “Old April” in the German version of The Longest Journey, many fans believe April will become Lady Alvane. The biggest clue is the appearance of April’s old buddy Crow during The Longest Journey’s epilogue. Crow asks if Alvane will go “out there again” on a “new adventure.” Alvane reassures him that their “adventuring days are over.” Alvane is also strangely aware of what happens to April Ryan and April’s friend Emma. Only April would know what happens to her and her friends, right?

Evidence to the Contrary

April Ryan could’ve become Lady Alvane if it hadn’t been for the fact that she appears to have died in her youth. In The Longest Journey, it is also heavily implied that Lady Alvane will be someone else entirely. Alvane mentions in the epilogue how “strange” it is to “remember April Ryan” and adds that her story is “almost over as well.” Those two crucial pieces of evidence crush any chance of April becoming “Old April.”

 

Source: http://sheattack.com...ion-april-ryan/

 

She remembers April Ryan after April visits her at the ending of DFC / Middle of TLJ. So I support the theory of Saga / Lady Alvane has the same soul as April: April Reborn. But still coexist both as April and Saga, two lives, as it's split. April and Crow goes live their life, Saga / Lady Alvane and Old Crow (Crow reborn). As HoaW exist between and everywhere, so there is no timeline, That's why Old April Reborn (Saga) can meet her past life self Young April. 

 

 

 

The enigmatic House of All Worlds is inhabited by Lady Alvane and a much older Crow. Its exact nature and location are still unknown, although Lady Alvane describes it as neither Stark, nor Arcadia: "this place is Between, and Everywhere." It is visited at the beginning of the story by two guests in rustic clothing who have come to hear Lady Alvane tell them a story.

 
April reaches the House of All Worlds when she is being pursued by Vanguard agents, via the "Mystery Door" outside the Fringe Cafe that opens some kind of portal. April says that it "felt different, not like Shifting." Lady Alvane tells her that, while April brought herself there, Lady Alvane opened the door for her.
 
Lady Alvane and Crow refer to the reunification of the worlds as having already occurred, but pre-reunification April is able to visit, so there is some kind of time paradox. Lady Alvane tells her guests "There are enough fairy tales in the worlds already", implying that the House of All Worlds is not the sole remaining world following reunification.

 

Norbert Matyńka said: IMHO, this is one of the effects of the "entanglement" part mentioned by Helena Wang and Saga. As Zoe could exist in two places at once, it's clear that there can be "copies" of our protagonists (be that spirits or echoes...) in several places at once, which is the only way to "escape" the story (by creating another story - many paradoxes and twists of spacetime here...) (because it ends where it begins - Uroboros trope again, recurring and recurring.... .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uroboros) Brilliant.


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#42 magic88889

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 10:50

What I find more interesting is the Kin connection.  Like April, the White calls Saga Sister-daughter. 

I wonder if that's because Saga and April share the same spirit, or is there some other connection?  We're not really told how April is part Kin either. 

Is it some ancient soul that has passed through time, and it was the original holder that was actually, physically Kin?  Or are both Saga and April not really the product of their parents?



#43 khh

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 12:16

Yeah this kinda doesn't make very much sense :D
Maybe one day Ragnar or someone else will explain how dragons "work" :)

That part makes perfect sense to me, actually.

 

But I would like to know about the other Kin.


April Ryan is my friend,
Every sorrow she can mend.
When I visit her dark realm,
Does it simply overwhelm.


#44 ruzicka

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 16:13

I too would welcome finding out more about April/Saga.  What transpired between the time Saga, as a young girl, left her home and when she reappeared to save Kian.

 

That sounds like a VERY interesting story to me!

 

Sign me up!



#45 yodagreen3

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 16:14

I'm convinced that Saga is April because it captivates the most interesting possibility. What else would it be? The story was coming to an end, why wouldn't Ragnar wrap up April Ryan's story? Because he hates everyone? haha

I'm convinced that Saga is in fact April. What else could it be? Why would it be anything else?  The evidence seems to indicate it as a strong possibility, and I don't see any other possible, worth while explanation to entertain... 

Saga is Abanaxus... nah... 

April Ryan and Saga are clearly connected and her rebirth is clearly connected to Saga's birth... It's not a very large leap of faith.


I'd say that the ending that proposes April Ryan was reborn as Saga is a fitting ending, it wraps everything up. Ragnar didn't end this game with a cliff hanger. He wrapped everything up. The ending isn't as ambiguous as it may appear to some in my opinion. 

Zoe's ending is very clear, April Ryan's ending is pretty obvious, even if not said outright. I'm pretty sure we're supposed to assume that April Ryan is Saga because that ends the series, wraps everything up. Ragnar gave us what we really wanted and I appreciate that. I was surprised that he still made Brian a villain when everyone assumed he was. In that vein, the game basically concluded as we suspected. But I loved it, a great ending to the series...

This was the ending, Home was meant to take place between events and then after... But I have a feeling that this part of the story is basically over. There was more than enough evidence to suggest that they were the SAME person even if different people. There wasn't any real in your face evidence to suggest it was anything else...

The game itself does NOT really put any other idea, theory into our heads... and I'm thinking that was intentional... as Ragnar had to think about what he was going to do next, and make it come together. I'm sure he put thought into it. The idea that April is Saga becomes pretty .... cerebral and suggestive by the time book 5 ends... and there's no other real suggestion. 

Why take all that time to put the idea in our minds and keep suggesting it with hints if it weren't the case. I think we're supposed to make the connection or take that leap of faith. 

Whatever ending  were we supposed to assume? It's pretty obvious we're meant to assume that April Ryan is Saga and since the game persists to try to convince you of that, and the series has come to a conclusion...I'd say it's a good bet...

I don't see too many people offering evidence, and sharing all the hints of an alternate explanation, ending with actual in game references. 
I think the conclusion is pretty obvious. I'm assuming that Home was going to make it even more clear, but since we're  not getting Home I'd say the pretty obvious ending put in our heads is probably the right one.

I don't think Ragnar meant to leave us hanging again. He went out of his way to conclude April's story. 

 


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#46 thelj

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 16:17

It's fine, when April visited the camera was fixed so she couldn't look at that part of the room :) :P

 

Or, maybe, RTG in their eagerness to please the fans with all those April references goofed up a little bit.  ;)



#47 Indrid Cold

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 21:11

I find myself believing what the White said in DF: That the connection between her and April (and probably Saga) is something that can't be explained in human words. I think it's not meant to be understood, more than a "simple" reincarnation.


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#48 mallard

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 22:31

I find myself believing what the White said in DF: That the connection between her and April (and probably Saga) is something that can't be explained in human words. I think it's not meant to be understood, more than a "simple" reincarnation.

 

Thats a cop out.


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#49 thelj

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 23:01

Thats a cop out.

Someone had to say it.

 

I mean, i've come to terms with the "mystery" and the fact that one of the bigger -if not the biggest- questions from 17 years ago, meaning April is not a Dragon but she's the daughter of the White Dragon, is never going to be answered.

What i gathered from the White's relevant little speech in DF was an intellectual way to say:

There isn't an actual explanation about that. It is what it is, or

We're not going to answer that one. Give it a rest.


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#50 CyrusSyn

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 10:47

You know I am wondering if April is actually going to be reborn as the child of Zoe. I really don't have anything to support this just yet give me some time and possibly some help form all of you and there just might be something here. Also it does seem that this story is kind of like the Matrix (just better written  :P .) 



#51 wandrew

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 11:15

For what it's worth, I think the only thing that's obvious is that there's SOME connection, and that Ragnar wants to keep it a bit of a mystery. I'd Saga doesn't understand it, how could we?

Aside from the German 'Old April' credit the game files list her as the same, but Ragnar was very quick to point out that it was someone on the team's error and that it was more complicated than it seemed. At the very least, we know something unusual was going on because the White was reborn as her daughter, but she had two!

Good catch on the similarities between the April and Saga models!
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#52 Pekka

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 11:23


I'm convinced that Saga is in fact April. What else could it be? Why would it be anything else?  The evidence seems to indicate it as a strong possibility, and I don't see any other possible, worth while explanation to entertain... 

 

(...)

 

I don't think Ragnar meant to leave us hanging again. He went out of his way to conclude April's story. 

 

 

I agree. Chances are that there will never be another game in the series, so it makes perfect sense to tie up the loose ends (or at least most of them) and end the story in a way that can be said to be a proper conclusion to the whole epic. I doubt writers like to leave everything hanging in the air for years, especially if it seems very likely there won't be any new games coming in the future. The LONG wait between the releases of Dreamfall (2006) and Chapters (2014) must have been hard for Ragnar too!

 

I have a feeling that if (and that appears to be a very big if!) there are going to be new games in this particular fantasy universe, they will probably be about different people and stories than the ones we know from TLJ and its sequels.


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#53 Bruno

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 11:55

...Along with my diary, talisman and various other items. :rolleyes:

 

Wait - I did not spot April's diary anywhere. Was it in the room?


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#54 Starseeker

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 12:20

Wait - I did not spot April's diary anywhere. Was it in the room?

 

Same question.

I think people just thought the book that is near April's picture is her diary, but it's not, it's some Azadi book with their goddess on the cover.



#55 Indrid Cold

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 21:48

Thats a cop out.

*shrug* I'm entirely comfortable with the idea that there are things, in reality, which humans are incapable of understanding. Not just "we don't know enough yet", but "incomprehensible to human minds". I have no objection to one of those existing in a story, especially if the specifics aren't important to it. And I don't think they are in this case.



#56 msierchio

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 21:57

Remember what Lady Alvane told April - the pain will never left her. And Saga is broken because mysterious vanishing of Etta and Magnus and HoAW became derelict. Another link between them.

 

Magnus didn't vanish - he walked out the door. Saga got to say goodbye.



#57 yodagreen3

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Posted 22 June 2016 - 14:55

I want TLJ Home. But we won't ever get it. I can almost warm up to this idea. I think one day I'll be able to accept it without wavering back to disappointment. I had really high , difficult expectations to reach for April. Chapters was actually a great game, I liked it more than Dreamfall honestly. 

I have very mixed feelings about the series  right now. I'm going to replay the entire series to see how it feels as one piece. I want to be happy with the ending, I really do. I think Home could have really tied everything together made it feel whole, one more Apri Ryan adventure, and then her journeys as a reborn Saga? 

I'm not sure how I feel. I have such mixed feelings. Should I just stick to  TLJ and forget the rest of the series? I'm not sure how I feel about the ending. I wish I had more time to warm up to Saga. I guess I accept ending over all. I want to be cool about this, I want to be open minded and positive. There's just a lot of baggage going into this game regarding April Ryan. I'll have to replay the entire series at the very least.


I'm pretty sure that April Ryan is saga, I'm just not sure if that brings me happiness yet. I need time to think, meditate on that. 

 

I think as a fan of TLJ the whole rebirth thing still just feels too alien, confusing to me. I loved April Ryan, and if this rebirth thing was how things were supposed to end up then that's cool. But I'm having a hard time understanding, appreciating it. I was shocked, disappointed when April died , but people some times have a hard time accepting and appreciating what they don't really understand. 

This entire series takes very bizzare turns. The second game with an entirely new protagonist and then April gets offed  and the world seems to be ending when the game ends, then the third game has some sort of rebirth. It's all just very confusing and a roller coaster to TLJ fans? It's like having your world turned upside down and then inside out, you know?

I think that Home would have been wonderful for all fans alike to really understand her transformation and appreciate it better. But even with this book, even though it's implied so much... that April is Saga, it's still vague, the details are still confusing and not everyone is even certain of it. Fans are still confused and on that crazy roller coaster that Dreamfall started us on... It's like they came up with interesting ideas that were very complex but left out a lot of the explanation to keep the mystery, but just ended up confusing fans like myself or leaving them without the completion, understanding they were searching for. Why kill April Ryan? How was she saved? Did she really want to be reborn? I need MORE, not even alot more just a little more...

I really really want Home to happen one day. 


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#58 Joshums

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Posted 22 June 2016 - 17:31

What else would it be?
 

You say this a lot, but the fact is, there are a lot of other theories. You just personally don't like them. Saying "what else would/can it be" isn't evidence or an argument.



#59 yodagreen3

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Posted 23 June 2016 - 04:18

You say this a lot, but the fact is, there are a lot of other theories. You just personally don't like them. Saying "what else would/can it be" isn't evidence or an argument.

Theories more likely true than April Ryan being Saga? Such as? The game clearly leans in that direction, there's a reason why most people think it's true. Yes, what else could it really be? That's how I feel, I don't feel the other "theories" are as likely. Personally don't like what? Queenie being Saga? That's absurd... Cortez was also Brian Westhouse... there's evidence! Evidence I tell you!  Crow is Cortez... you can clearly see that when...

Come on the game leans in that direction, it puts that idea into your head... it tries to anyone. You can't ignore the synchronicites in April's death/ Sagas birth and other nods, and suggestions that April is Saga...Any one can convince their selves of a theory based on "the evidence". You know, the most likely explanation is some times the only true one...We've already played the entire story, book 1-5... it's pretty... suggestive, if not obvious that we're supposed to think April is in fact Saga... 

How many shooters were there ? Was there one or two, was there one on the grassy knoll!? Illuminati! 

Honestly I think alot of these theories, based on evidence are... they may inspire intelligent, thought provoking conversation but ultimately they are off the page and creating connections that aren't really there, even if one can be convinced that they are there... The story , the game actually DOES have many blatant, solid moments that suggest april is saga... Such as Saga's birth scene... 


I'm sorry but the strongest, most likely ending is that Saga is April... they basically spell it out for you. "The bird will be tied to the girl who walks between worlds when it dies..." "She will be reborn..." Crow dies and is reborn and is tied to Saga/ April... this among a million other clues makes April being Saga the most likely of theories, especially given the series has wrapped up.There are more instances throughout Chapters that I can count to support this theory, unlike most other theories which are half baked and lead no where and to no actual conclusion... like Queenie being Saga, a fun idea... but ultimately it leads no where...No amount of evidence or ACTUAL in game content suggests that Queenie is in fact Saga... it's just not there, not going to happen. Sure, some "evidence" may make people believe that but it is more speculation than evidence suggested by the ACTUAL game/ story, dialogue... 

The evidence that Saga is April is repeated over and over and over again, it's very consistent and a MAJOR part of the story... The hints can't really be ignored, but people seem to be trying to twist everything around. Since book one there has been strong evidence to suggest that April and Saga are connected and Saga is April Ryan reborn, what "theory" of yours has evidence since book one and consistently has continuous evidence throughout the entire run of Chapters? This ending makes the most sense... 

April was supposed to be reborn the entire time... Saga was born the same time April died... There's just way more evidence of this than any half baked fan theory, no matter how convincing or creative. If you can provide counter evidence since book one to completely derail the theory, make it impossible, that would be one thing...

But... I sincerely doubt that any one can or will... or they already would have. It's nice to speculate and people don't want things to be easy, they want to wrack their brains and come up with wild ideas ... but , I'm thinking that the April is Saga explanation is pretty solid. I'd put it in the top 2-3 theories....What else goes in that category? Do you have a better theory that is more convincing? I some what doubt it honestly...

Each to their own... It's not a matter of not liking the other "theories" and accepting the "evidence"... it's looking at things as they are actually presented in the game and actually make the blatant connections that are being thrown in your face...

Some people can't always see the cigar... some times a cigar is just a... 

Each to their own, maybe some wild eyed crazy fan theory out of left field that doesn't answer anything, end anything is correct but I'm sort of thinking that the theory that wraps up the series and makes the most sense and is suggested repetitively throughout the entire game... clear as crystal... is correct. 

Maybe not...
Each to their own, speculate all you want, doesn't mean you're going to win any prize from it. 
I'll stick to the most likely theory until told else wise from the creator himself...
Honestly, I think it's obtuse to discount the possibility, I think it's something most people at least considered and I think it's the most likely of explanations...

Each to their own. 

 



#60 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 23 June 2016 - 04:57

I don't think the issue here is a matter of probabilities or most likely scenarios or whatever else. 

 

For me, it basically boils down to a variation on the "Books Belong To Their Readers" mantra. So, I guess in this case it would be "Games Belong To Their Players." 

 

Outstanding short stories, etc. that may provide additional canonical details aside, the game is what we have to work with here. And there is a lot that is vaguely gestured at, perhaps, but is never explicitly stated. Which means that we as players are allowed to fill in those blanks for ourselves (or not). 

 

I have my own interpretations of the link between April and Saga, but those are my interpretations. If I share them, I will frame them as my own interpretations. How I feel, what I think is most likely, what I choose to believe, what I find satisfactory for an explanation. 

 

But even if I can provide evidence for why I feel my interpretation is "most probably correct" (whatever that even means in this context) there are still other theories and they may work better in someone else's mind or make them feel better or feel is more likely from their perspective. And that's fine. 

 

If it's left open to interpretation, then there are going to be multiple interpretations. 

 

TL;DR: The issue isn't having a theory or feeling that your theory is the most likely explanation. The issue is presenting your theory as definitive and being a jerk about other people seeing things differently. 


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