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April and Saga

April saga connection

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#21 thelj

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 12:00

Inspect the Talisman of Balance, Lady Alvane doesn't even hesitate when calling it April's and is generally baffled at how it go there, even though Saga probably fulfilled the second part of April's prophecies. Inspecting April's picture also feels like Lady Alvane is going out of her way to separate April from herself, or just reduce her to some vivid memories, also the picture of April she drew.

 

This.

 

Before Book 5 i was convinced that Saga is the reborn April, but not anymore. Now it looks like they just have a "mysterious" connection ( probably something to do with the Kin ) and Saga carries some of April's memories. Nothing more.

 

Little Saga drew a picture of "Brian and the shadow inside him" which April had no clue about. Where did that knowledge come from? Is Saga also a reborn Brian or carries a part of his soul? So...Saga having all those memories of April's life=She's the reborn April, i don't buy it anymore.

 

Briefly, i thought she might be the new White ( when you examine the purplish painting of April, where the Mother and the egg was, Saga says it's the place of her "ancestry" ), but this doesn't make sense either because: when you examine the White on the wall ( which, suspiciously, looks like a piece of the mural that was in the Enclave. Did Saga loot the place? ) she says something like "maybe i'll meet her again" and her parents seem to be not Kin but: Magnus seems like like a normal person, maybe from Stark and Etta, based on a memento examination, i guess she's from a place/world? called Midgard.

 

About the epilogue, it was pretty hilarious that Saga/L.A. made sure to not let Crow be seen by April ( which, in itself makes sense ), but it was perfectly normal to have pictures of April on the walls and the talisman of the Balance ( which April also had with her when she visited  :huh: ) displayed on full view.  :lol:

 

*Also, i can't shake the feeling that in TLJ, L.A. was really supposed to be April herself ( not a reborn version of her or a different person ) and that changed afterwards.


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#22 mallard

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 12:21

It seems obvious enough to me that early on in chapters they thought they would have TLJH to finish the kin/April/saga related stuff. Then for book 5 they tried to answer all of those questions when they realized their wouldn't be a next game.

I think they were trying to say at one point in the epilogue that saga doesn't fully understand either, when she looks at the white dragon. The line that most seems to say that she is April reborn is when lady Alvane says she wants to meet April one day face to face. She knows she's April , but also that now she is wiser/ knows more.
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#23 Pawlo_86

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 12:35

*Also, i can't shake the feeling that in TLJ, L.A. was really supposed to be April herself ( not a reborn version of her or a different person ) and that changed afterwards.


I trust Ragnar when he said that Lady Alvane's identity was never retconed after TLJ. In TLJ you can feel that there is link between April and Lady Alvane but there is no simple proof that Lady Alvane is Old April. I love LA mystery!
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#24 thelj

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 14:01

The line that most seems to say that she is April reborn is when lady Alvane says she wants to meet April one day face to face. 

 

That line says that, because of their "connection", she would like/is curious to meet April face to face.

 

Also, that line was plain stupid and out of place because...umm...hellooo L.A., April is about to visit you any moment now and you're fully aware of that.


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#25 Shifterdreamer

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 14:17

To me, Saga is Saga and April is April. They're not family, or April reborn etc. They share a connection, as it was said in the Epilogue, but that will remain a mystery. It wasn't clarified at all. And I'm ok with that. But what buggers me is the whole involvement of the White Dragon in all this. Who is the White Dragon, to begin with? I never understood how April could be her daughter or sister, I mean, it never made any sense to me. Saga being a Kin? Neither. But who was Saga's mother? She was clearly non-human, unlike her father. But I don't think she was the White Dragon either. 

 

If the Kin are reborn everytime their physical form dies, then Saga's mother could have been another reincarnation of the White Dragon after the ''original daughter'' got stabbed by Brian? Seems ridiculous to me. How many times is the White of the Kin going to be reborn? lol In any case, I'd only accept the April-White Dragon connection even if I still don't understand it to this day.

 

As I have mentioned in another thread, in the Epilogue, we see part of the mural of the Enclave (White Dragon and the Balance Symbol, next to Kian's room) hanging on the wall. Speficially the head. Another mystery since I don't really connect Saga with the Kin. 


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#26 Barentity

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 14:43

I'm kind of surprised that so many people are confused or skeptical about the connection between Saga and April...

 

Remember the Big Reveal at the end of TLJ? "Your journey started with an answer, but it's only now that you know the question". Spoiler alert - the White Dragon is April's mother. And then the White Dragon dies and is reborn. That is why the reborn White Dragon is in some sense both April's sister and her mother at the same time. The White Dragon appears to Saga in DFC and calls her "sister-daughter".

 

Saga is April reborn. April has this ability because she is part Kin. Saga's birth is shown to us immediately after April's funeral. Saga remembers April's journey. They're not her own memories, they are memories from a past life. Book One of DFC is called Rebirth, since all of the characters from Dreamfall including April, gain a new life.

 

April was 'saved' via death because she was reborn. Her bitterness and her apathy died, and she was transformed.

 

Abnaxus also clues us into all this pretty heavily. Crow and Zoë explicitly ask him about April and he says "She was reborn ... The Dragon of Spring. The Girl Who Walked Between Worlds. Mortal and immortal. Human and Kin."

 

In reference to Crow, Abnaxus says that "At the end of its life, the bird will be bonded to the Girl Who Walked Across Worlds". At the end of DFC and TLJ we see that Crow is bonded to Saga (Lady Alvane). We also see Crow symbolically reunited with the TLJ version of April after Crow shows Zoë the stuff. Abnaxus uses roughly the same terminology to refer to both April and Saga (The Girl Who Walked Across Worlds). Saga is April reborn, QED.


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#27 Lee-m

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 14:46

To me, Saga is Saga and April is April. They're not family, or April reborn etc. They share a connection, as it was said in the Epilogue, but that will remain a mystery. It wasn't clarified at all. And I'm ok with that. But what buggers me is the whole involvement of the White Dragon in all this. Who is the White Dragon, to begin with? I never understood how April could be her daughter or sister, I mean, it never made any sense to me. Saga being a Kin? Neither. But who was Saga's mother? She was clearly non-human, unlike her father. But I don't think she was the White Dragon either.

 
In a way that is true, they are different people.

But I think its fairly simple under it all, and is roughly this:
The White Dragon started a sort of lineage, and she obviously has the power of rebirth. April was one, Saga is the other (that we know of).
They are both there to fulfill prophecies, and all the Kin new what Aprils job was.
The rebirth of the White is what changes the relationships from Mother to Sister.

And everything around it is a massively convoluted plot, and starts and ends with the creation of the divide.

At least, thats what I have.
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#28 Shifterdreamer

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 14:50

Mm your posts put me into some thinking, Barentity and Lee-m. The rebirth clues are there but I don't know why I'm still so reticent about it. I have to replay DFC... But yes, what you say makes sense. 


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#29 thelj

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 16:07

The White in DF  clearly said "You are not Draic Kin". She didn't say "You're only part Kin".

 

I agree the clues of the rebirth are present in books 1-4. As i said, i was pretty certain that Saga=reborn April. But Saga's comments in the epilogue about how she doesn't understand her connection to April and keeps talking about her as if she's a totally different person than her, nullified that certainty. After 100, 200 ( or however old Saga is ) years, she hasn't realized she was April in her previous life? She can feel April's presence and chi in the talisman of the Balance, but not inside herself? 

If Saga=reborn April, i find that in Book 5 it was poorly conveyed.

 

Can someone who is totally set on the matter, that Saga is indeed the reborn April, explain to me the "Brian and his shadow" drawing?



#30 Kianismybae

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 16:20

If Saga is half human half kin... is a reincarnation of both, April and the white. The memories  could be vanished when the died and for that Saga knows the story but don´t recognised it  til reaches the maturity.



#31 Lee-m

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 16:24

The White said April wasn't a Dragon. But is Kin. The Kin part being a form of Family.
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#32 Babel-17

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 16:26

Huh, I just now was reminded of an Iain M. Banks novel I just reread. Spoiler alert.

 

There's a similar plot point in it; there's a character who has to "die" one last time so as to become another entity, one who can save the world. And she does it by helping to shape a new reality. There's a poignant scene near the end where, in something of a flashback, the character asks if all of his identity will be lost during his transformation.

 

https://en.wikipedia...Feersum_Endjinn


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#33 thelj

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 16:39

The White said April wasn't a Dragon. But is Kin. The Kin part being a form of Family.

 

She didn't say Kin, she said "we're bound by kinship stronger than blood". i think Kin ( with a capital K ) refers to the Draic Kin only.



#34 Lee-m

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 16:51

She didn't say Kin, she said "we're bound by kinship stronger than blood". i think Kin ( with a capital K ) refers to the Draic Kin only.

If that is the exact quote. They wouldnt be throwing that word around carelessly. From what I can see it still a direct reference to family. After book 5, I don't think there is much room left for theorising on the April/Saga front.

I'm very glad about that actually :)

#35 the red of the kin

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 17:50

a

I'm kind of surprised that so many people are confused or skeptical about the connection between Saga and April...
 
Remember the Big Reveal at the end of TLJ? "Your journey started with an answer, but it's only now that you know the question". Spoiler alert - the White Dragon is April's mother. And then the White Dragon dies and is reborn. That is why the reborn White Dragon is in some sense both April's sister and her mother at the same time. The White Dragon appears to Saga in DFC and calls her "sister-daughter".


The white dragon is April's mother. Anyone who played TLJ knows that. But everyone interprets things differently. I, for example, always thought this was more of a spiritual bond. First the obvious out of the way: if April is the dragon's daughter, she "should" have the same phisical FORM.
But ofcourse not: in TLJ and DF:TLJ we learn (especially throught the White Dragon Reborn) that the kins can take human form. Cool.
Then there's the other aspect: the SPIRIT. April is the White's daughter but she has no memory of any previous incarnation. The White dragon Reborn definitely remembers everything. Saga remembers...some stuff? April knows nothing at all.
How come April knows nothing at all?

April was 'saved' via death because she was reborn. Her bitterness and her apathy died, and she was transformed.


Yep: little by little it was clear that this is the answer to Zoe's journey in DF:TLJ. Find April, save April. April had to die and Zoe killed her. Ok it wasn't really her but somehow she did.
But in the end we see April and Crow in Storytime. So is April truly reincarnated in Saga or is she dead? Or was that someone else's dream? That I've yet to understand...also, if I recall it right, April and Crow seem to have more adventures ahead of them...but April is Saga so....I don't know.

Abnaxus also clues us into all this pretty heavily. Crow and Zoë explicitly ask him about April and he says "She was reborn ... The Dragon of Spring. The Girl Who Walked Between Worlds. Mortal and immortal. Human and Kin."


Yeah: pretty heavy stuff, doc! In fact Zoe stops Abnaxus because she doesn't understand much of what he's saying.
In fact it is kind of difficult to think that one dragon can be three different people at the same time: the white reborn and killed again by Brian - spirit, Saga and April in Dremtime. Pretty far out, no?

In reference to Crow, Abnaxus says that "At the end of its life, the bird will be bonded to the Girl Who Walked Across Worlds".


Yep: I wonder how this bond happened. It is shown that, once killed, Crow gets picked up by Saga and then who knows what happens. She did bring some potion for Kian but nothing else. People have theorized she resurrected him or that Crow is something like a phoenix.
Lots of speculation to be done ^_^
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#36 Bluejay

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 00:34

Yep: little by little it was clear that this is the answer to Zoe's journey in DF:TLJ. Find April, save April. April had to die and Zoe killed her. Ok it wasn't really her but somehow she did.
But in the end we see April and Crow in Storytime. So is April truly reincarnated in Saga or is she dead? Or was that someone else's dream? That I've yet to understand...also, if I recall it right, April and Crow seem to have more adventures ahead of them...but April is Saga so....I don't know.

 

 

I think we're being constraint by the thought that people are perpetually "tied" to time. I don't think Storytime is anchored to the normal flow of time. It is a place where what was, is held in memory. When April and Crow walked away, they are heading to their next phase of their existence which doesn't mean they get to come out at the other side together, in the same place, at the same time in the world of matter. 


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#37 khh

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 01:05

And anyone else think they look bit similar?

When I finally saw Saga's grown up model ingame, I was definitively struck by the resemblance. Especially to FMV April.

 

I hope Abnaxus is doing well

Didn't look like it >.<

 

About the epilogue, it was pretty hilarious that Saga/L.A. made sure to not let Crow be seen by April ( which, in itself makes sense ), but it was perfectly normal to have pictures of April on the walls and the talisman of the Balance ( which April also had with her when she visited  :huh: ) displayed on full view.  :lol:

It's fine, when April visited the camera was fixed so she couldn't look at that part of the room :) :P

 

a
The white dragon is April's mother. Anyone who played TLJ knows that. But everyone interprets things differently. I, for example, always thought this was more of a spiritual bond. First the obvious out of the way: if April is the dragon's daughter, she "should" have the same phisical FORM.
But ofcourse not: in TLJ and DF:TLJ we learn (especially throught the White Dragon Reborn) that the kins can take human form. Cool.
Then there's the other aspect: the SPIRIT. April is the White's daughter but she has no memory of any previous incarnation. The White dragon Reborn definitely remembers everything. Saga remembers...some stuff? April knows nothing at all.
How come April knows nothing at all?

April isn't a reincarnation of the White, isn't the White Reborn. She's just her plain, old daughter. She doesn't have the spirit of the White in her any more than you have the spirit of your parents, and so she doesn't have the knowledge either.


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Every sorrow she can mend.
When I visit her dark realm,
Does it simply overwhelm.


#38 Mr Moo

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 02:29

+1 to Saga being April reborn. How much spelled out does it really need to be? It's literally spelled out that Saga is April reborn. :)

 

And the mementos of Old Lady Alvane? It seems to me that Saga has traveled the worlds for all her life, exploring and fulfilling prophecies, and haven't really sat down to think through her connection with a girl she never met or knew - although had a lot of memories from. Naturally it would be hard to separate her real memories, and the passed on memories of an earlier life.

 

About the April mementos in the living room - a quest to pick those up before April walks through the door may be in order? It would feel weird to visit some lady I've never seen before, who has a large image of me framed on her wall. Along with my diary, talisman and various other items. :rolleyes:


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#39 the red of the kin

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 08:01

I don't think Storytime is anchored to the normal flow of time. It is a place where what was, is held in memory. When April and Crow walked away, they are heading to their next phase of their existence which doesn't mean they get to come out at the other side together, in the same place, at the same time in the world of matter. 

 

I don't know what happens to Crow and April after they've both been dead, but it's pretty sad we didn't get to see them interact if Stark and Arcadia together one last time :°(


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#40 the red of the kin

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 08:02

April isn't a reincarnation of the White, isn't the White Reborn. She's just her plain, old daughter. She doesn't have the spirit of the White in her any more than you have the spirit of your parents, and so she doesn't have the knowledge either.

 

Yeah this kinda doesn't make very much sense :D
Maybe one day Ragnar or someone else will explain how dragons "work" :)


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