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April and Saga

April saga connection

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#1 Nathanael

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Posted 18 June 2016 - 19:56

So how were they connected? Was Saga April or not?

And anyone else think they look bit similar?

 

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#2 Tamahome

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Posted 18 June 2016 - 21:01

Oh yeah, they have the exact same facial expression and their features are similar enough to make them look related, I instantly linked that as well.

 

As for their connection, I dunno, maybe let's ask Lady Alvane? I mean she travelled through multiple worlds, most likely fulfilled the prophecies that April was supposed to fulfil in the War of the Blance but couldn't cause she is very much dead, oh and let's not forget that Uncle Galath is a most likely a Kin (he wrote the new scriptures and went back to the stars, as the kin were meant to once the twin worlds were no more), also she happens to have the same sidekick. Oh wait, even she didn't escape the maximum level trolling sponsored by Draic KinTm

 

Now don't get me wrong, I loved Book 5, I love DFC, and I loved the House of all Worlds ending, but this felt so forced, to keep this one mystery going. Logically April was supposed to usher in the reunification, Lady Alvane is sure to know this, so how is it that she didn't connect the dots when she most likely ushered in the reunification? She does mention they are connected but she never says in what way and the dialogue goes out of its way to separate the two, the talisman was baffling like "How did this get here? It's not like I have this mystical connection with its owner, it can't be mine right?". And the Draic Kin didn't think she may finally deserve the truth? Nah, they'll just roll back home. Considering Abnaxus's words Saga is also a kin, guess the whole family has abandonment issues.

 

It feels like April was simply reduced to being a plot device, first a convenient tool and then a way to introduce the true hero of the story, Saga. April died and that's it, she was reduced to becoming dreamlike memories of a woman who herself is unsure of what she is. Saga got the shaft too, with no explanation for her mother's disappearance and her connection to April but at least she lived a long and good life, unlike April.  

 

I do have to say I do like Saga's character, I would love to see a game with her and Kian. But the way April's connection to Saga is handled in those final moments make it seem like April's character development in dreamfall was completely spot on, she was a nobody, a vessel for a soul, that needs to die so it goes to its true owner. She was a pawn to be used and then safely discarded. She was probably just a random Stark orphan who won the lottery and got a dragon's soul for delivery to it's true destination in 30 or so years.

 

Bonus Points: Old Crow is probably not the same Crow either, just the soul of Crow, reborn. 

 

Double Bonus Points: The Longest Journey Home achievement, because there hasn't been enough salt rubbed in that wound yet, guess you should have donated more money guys! 

 

Sorry if I sound a bit aggressive but I do feel a bit strongly about this topic, there are other issues with Book 5 and DFC in general, but it's a great sequel with a mostly very satisfying ending and I would like to thank RTG for all their hard work and making this a reality. :)


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#3 Nathanael

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Posted 18 June 2016 - 21:41

Before Book 5 I thought that Saga will be fully aware that she is (or was) April.

 

Now I have mixed feelings about Dreamfall. Dreamfall Chapters has great and epic ending but at the same time I hate it. I absolutely hate what RTG did with April. Now I don't know how to play TLJ again, knowing that wonderful main character is actually filler without any meaning... I'm sad...

 

DFC has just completely destroyed TLJ. And April.


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#4 Tamahome

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 02:15

I wouldn't say that DFC completely ruined TLJ, it's still a great game and a great story, as for April, she is a great character but maybe she wasn't all that important after all, maybe McAllen was right in saying she is only a pawn. That would explain why Cortez never told her the whole truth. "Well you see, you only exist to sort this mess out and then we don't really need you alive, in fact please die ASAP so we may get on with the show". Guess we should move on, especially considering there will be no TLJH or other games. There should have been more emphasis on April being a part of Saga, rather than vivid memories. 

 

If the old Crow is not the original Crow but then it's even worse, one thing left of April in this world also reduced to vague previous life memories. 


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#5 Tiago

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 05:20

If Saga is April reborn, and the saga is about Saga (heheh :P), then April in a sense still is the central character of the saga. Just not in the form that most people would expect.

 

The April that visited Saga during the ending is yet to become Saga. But, strictly speaking, they are still the same person.


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#6 Pawlo_86

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 07:17

There is a connection between April and Saga but even Lady Alvane doesn't understand it. I think that Saga is reborn April and upcoming White Dragon. But its hard to explain. Im glad that Lady Alvane was revealed and at the same time left as nice mystery.

#7 Joshums

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 07:43

I don't see why Saga would be April reborn. There's definitely something in common between them, but the secret to that is hidden in the nature of Etta and the how the spirit of the White Dragon works.

 

When a dragon's spirit is part of a mortal's birth, I'm sure death has to work a little differently. :P If there's a bit of the White Dragon in April, and a bit in Saga, and all those bits of spirit are connected because it's all ultimately just one "White Dragon", then the death of April Ryan's body could certainly be seen as setting that bit of spirit 'free'. And it would certainly be a reason why Saga would have vivid dreams about April's story, through the connection provided by the dragon's spirit.

 

It might also explain why so many truths weren't told to Lady Alvane / Saga. After all, why bother? Her death, too, would be the same as April's -- a freeing of that spirit where all her questions could be answered, just as April's were.

 

And, it's only a mini thought exercise, but I think April's death might be more connected to Etta's disappearance than to Saga's birth. I can't be sure why yet, but it seems somehow more...likely? If those vivid dreams during Saga's early childhood were coming to her during the events of TLJ, and time travels at weird speeds in the House, it would at least line up that April's death and Etta's disappearance both occurred after the first interlude. I dunno. I've probably got this all wrong somehow.

 

 

--aside--

The Talisman of the Balance showing up in the House of All Worlds might truly be a mystery to Saga. Who's to say that someone else didn't visit the house while she was away......?



#8 magic88889

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 07:46

It's pretty clearly spelled out when Zoe asks about saving April, and Saga replies so she could be reborn.  I don't know how much clearer they can make it.

Add to that the titles of the chapters involved, and it's obvious that April dies, and was reborn as Saga.  There's really no other way to interpret it.


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#9 Pawlo_86

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 07:48

Death of April was connected to death of White Dragon. At the very end they will became ONE.

#10 Joshums

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 08:10

There's really no other way to interpret it.

Funny, because I think that way is obviously wrong. XD



#11 magic88889

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 08:47

If people want to ignore what the game is telling them, fine.  The question was answered.  Not just hinted at, but answered in plain English.  I'm done debating this.  The endings done, the facts are in, and Saga is April reborn.


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#12 Gentleman

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 08:52

If people want to ignore what the game is telling them, fine.  The question was answered.  Not just hinted at, but answered in plain English.  I'm done debating this.  The endings done, the facts are in, and Saga is April reborn.

 

What? Saga is clearly Lady Alvane, and in the epilogue Lady Alvane meets with April. They can't literally be the same person because of that scene alone.



#13 magic88889

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 08:59

Yes they can.  That meeting takes place in the House of All Worlds.  It exists outside of time, so time has little meaning.  It is completely possible for Saga to meet her past self.  As long as the songlines converge at the right point, you can go anywhere, and anywhen from the house.  The hose will be connected to that time and place, but only so long as the songlines stay in place.  That's why it was always a risk to leave the house.  You never knew at what point you wound end up getting back.

 

edit: actually you're right.  They're not the same person.  Saga is April reborn.  She's still her own person.  A separate entity.  However, her soul (if you will), is the same one April had.  That's how reincarnation works,


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#14 Pawlo_86

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 09:10

Remember what Lady Alvane told April - the pain will never left her. And Saga is broken because mysterious vanishing of Etta and Magnus and HoAW became derelict. Another link between them.

#15 wedfvbghy

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 09:20

I do have to say I do like Saga's character, I would love to see a game with her and Kian. But the way April's connection to Saga is handled in those final moments make it seem like April's character development in dreamfall was completely spot on, she was a nobody, a vessel for a soul, that needs to die so it goes to its true owner. She was a pawn to be used and then safely discarded. She was probably just a random Stark orphan who won the lottery and got a dragon's soul for delivery to it's true destination in 30 or so years.

 

Your soul isn't something you pick up and carry with you. To quote Jim Butcher: you are a soul. You have a body.

 

It's also likely to be true in the DFC multiverse, because at the beginning of Chapters Zoe says about Storytime lightdrips:

 

Those lights are people. Souls, spirits... whatever you want to call them.

 

So if Saga has April's soul, she is April. If she's changed a lot, then so what, there's no life without change. And if both meet at one point, that's also not a problem, nothing prohibits incarnation lives to overlap. And traveling between worlds or faster than light means time travel could also be possible.

 

It would be quite a big thing to Saga to understand one day that she is April. But we don't see it happen on-screen because in the Dreamer story that's an unneeded detail. She's not the most important one here, and her part is limited, because a: not really about her and b: given her behavior, she could easily derail Dreamfall story otherwise.

 

So I don't think that April was discard as unneeded or anything like that. It's more like she's a larva of a more complex being, and she's transcended into next phase. We don't know what that is exactly, because she's a significant magical being, a messenger of higher powers, and magic requires mystery.


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#16 the red of the kin

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 09:41

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA this is hilarious!  :D 

Lady Alvane is clearly this, April is clearly that, Saga is Queenie, who is really a dragon, be it blue, green or red..

There are clear "clues" but the truth is in the end I have more questions than answers.

Questions that will probably be answered only by speculations or further observation through replaying the game.

 

I hope Abnaxus is doing well


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#17 Tamahome

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 10:30

Your soul isn't something you pick up and carry with you. To quote Jim Butcher: you are a soul. You have a body.

 

It's also likely to be true in the DFC multiverse, because at the beginning of Chapters Zoe says about Storytime lightdrips:

 

So if Saga has April's soul, she is April. If she's changed a lot, then so what, there's no life without change. And if both meet at one point, that's also not a problem, nothing prohibits incarnation lives to overlap. And traveling between worlds or faster than light means time travel could also be possible.

 

It would be quite a big thing to Saga to understand one day that she is April. But we don't see it happen on-screen because in the Dreamer story that's an unneeded detail. She's not the most important one here, and her part is limited, because a: not really about her and b: given her behavior, she could easily derail Dreamfall story otherwise.

 

So I don't think that April was discard as unneeded or anything like that. It's more like she's a larva of a more complex being, and she's transcended into next phase. We don't know what that is exactly, because she's a significant magical being, a messenger of higher powers, and magic requires mystery.

 

I am personally of a firm belief that the most defining trait of any person is their character and their actions. It's clear Saga is April in some metaphysical sense, but she is not April, she didn't just change a lot, they are two separate entities, even if they share the same soul. If Saga acknowledged that it was her actions and her past life then yes she would be a changed April, but she is very clear about separating April's life from her own even if she admittedly sometimes struggles.

 

Also you can't really derail Dreamfall's story after the story was over, House of All worlds scene in the end had nothing to do with it and was set many many years after it, in fact it was set many years after the War of Balance so it was also likely set well after the mythical TLJH (the bits that cover period after DFC anyway). Yet Lady Alvane has no clue about anything, which sort of makes me wonder just how involved the Draic Kin would be in a future game, or how one explains prophecies regarding April destroying the balance. 


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#18 wedfvbghy

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 10:58

I am personally of a firm belief that the most defining trait of any person is their character and their actions. It's clear Saga is April in some metaphysical sense, but she is not April, she didn't just change a lot, they are two separate entities, even if they share the same soul. If Saga acknowledged that it was her actions and her past life then yes she would be a changed April, but she is very clear about separating April's life from her own even if she admittedly sometimes struggles.

 

Could you please point out where such separation happens on-screen? I'm under impression that it wasn't really there.

 

Also you can't really derail Dreamfall's story after the story was over, House of All worlds scene in the end had nothing to do with it and was set many many years after it

 

When I talk about story derailing, I mean it would happen if Saga had a bigger part to play during the events of Dreamfall, either Chapters or earlier. Before the story was over, not after. Even during the Book 5. Because Saga appears to be competent in stuff she's doing, she knows many of the answers. And Dreamfall is mostly about characters that don't. Both Zoe and Kian are thrown into situation where their previous knowledge is of no use. The story revolves around them learning. If Saga would come and just tell them what to do, where that story would be?



#19 Tamahome

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 11:04

Could you please point out where such separation happens on-screen? I'm under impression that it wasn't really there.

 

 

When I talk about story derailing, I mean it would happen if Saga had a bigger part to play during the events of Dreamfall, either Chapters or earlier. Before the story was over, not after. Even during the Book 5. Because Saga appears to be competent in stuff she's doing, she knows many of the answers. And Dreamfall is mostly about characters that don't. Both Zoe and Kian are thrown into situation where their previous knowledge is of no use. The story revolves around them learning. If Saga would come and just tell them what to do, where that story would be?

 

Inspect the Talisman of Balance, Lady Alvane doesn't even hesitate when calling it April's and is generally baffled at how it go there, even though Saga probably fulfilled the second part of April's prophecies. Inspecting April's picture also feels like Lady Alvane is going out of her way to separate April from herself, or just reduce her to some vivid memories, also the picture of April she drew.

 

As for your second point, I agree and I don't think I ever actually brought this up, DFC was Zoe and Kian foremost and as much as I enjoyed Saga her inclusion in the last Book is borderline if not completely a deus ex machina. 


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#20 Turin231

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 11:54

Personally i cannot only think the vague clues in meta fashion. The last game that was supposed to happen (TLJH) was foreshadowed from the start. It was said that dream fall is Zoe´s story and the TLJ ones were April´s. Yet the Devs find it very unlikely that TLJH will ever happen. So they added the April/Saga vague clues and bits without a definite explanation to serve both as a kind of finale to April´s ark (So that if this is the final game it would still work on a level) but vague enough not to make a sequel impossible story-wise. But it feels like a patch.

Chapters concluded Zoe´s and Kian´s story beautifully (as it was originally designed i presume). But April/Saga parts feel incomplete. Which makes perfect sense since chapters is not their story. It might have even undermined the main protagonists of Chapters if that was the case. But it feels like there should be more about them. I hope they manage to make a TLJH game eventually because seeing 18 year old April in chapters evoked so many nostalgic feelings that made the fact that the April/Saga connection was left so vague even worst. Since the first game the War of the Balance was foreshadowed as the true cathartic moment/conclusion of the series and April. I really wish we get it eventually.     


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