

Vestrum Tobias: Honest mistakes or deliberate lies?
#1
Posted 17 February 2016 - 17:37

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#2
Posted 18 February 2016 - 04:50
Tobias, Cortez, Father Raul and Adrian as well as the unknowns Cortez was in contact with in Marcuria, thought that April would be the next Guardian. The Blue of the Kin knew who she was although it may not have included being the 13th Guardian. McAllen also saw her as a threat which is why he had been searching for her long before April met Cortez. This just goes to show that the future can not fully be known. It also provided a surprise ending to the game.
Had April not been given the Talisman of the 13th Guardian, her quest would have ended in Alais and the Tyrens would have invaded Marcuria before any more of the disc and jewels could have been recovered. In this telling of the story by Lady Alvane, there apparently was one path for April to the Guardian's Realm.
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#3
Posted 18 February 2016 - 04:57
Tobias, Cortez, Father Raul and Adrian as well as the unknowns Cortez was in contact with in Marcuria, thought that April would be the next Guardian. The Blue of the Kin knew who she was although it may not have included being the 13th Guardian. McAllen also saw her as a threat which is why he had been searching for her long before April met Cortez. This just goes to show that the future can not fully be known. It also provided a surprise ending to the game.
Had April not been given the Talisman of the 13th Guardian, her quest would have ended in Alais and the Tyrens would have invaded Marcuria before any more of the disc and jewels could have been recovered. In this telling of the story by Lady Alvane, there apparently was one path for April to the Guardian's Realm.
Why would her journey have ended on Alais without the Talisman?
#4
Posted 18 February 2016 - 09:44
I don't know about the rest of it, but April needed the Talisman in order to prove she was the Waterstiller and get the Maerum half of their part of the disc.
She also used it on the ship on the way there. She actually wouldn't have ended up on Alais at all if not for it. And finally, she needed it to get past the Chaos Vortex in the Guardian's Realm, and reunite it with Gordon.
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#5
Posted 18 February 2016 - 13:58
I don't know about the rest of it, but April needed the Talisman in order to prove she was the Waterstiller and get the Maerum half of their part of the disc.
She also used it on the ship on the way there. She actually wouldn't have ended up on Alais at all if not for it. And finally, she needed it to get past the Chaos Vortex in the Guardian's Realm, and reunite it with Gordon.
In regards to her reunion with Gordon... How did he manage to get himself past the three trials?
#6
Posted 18 February 2016 - 18:42
Why would her journey have ended on Alais without the Talisman?
In addition to Magic88889 's post, only the Talisman could unlock the vault in the cave just outside the Maerum City.
In regards to her reunion with Gordon... How did he manage to get himself past the three trials?
This story was was not about Gordon, it was about April, the friends she made, the obstacles she had to overcome and the help she received.
Note: That question is one I wonder about every time I play the game - I am also curious.
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#7
Posted 18 February 2016 - 22:47
In addition to Magic88889 's post, only the Talisman could unlock the vault in the cave just outside the Maerum City.
This story was was not about Gordon, it was about April, the friends she made, the obstacles she had to overcome and the help she received.
Note: That question is one I wonder about every time I play the game - I am also curious.
Unlocking the Maerum vault required four crystals found scattered around the area, the Talisman played no part in it's unlocking. In-game you show the Talisman to the Maerum queen as one part of the prophecy, however, the way that part of the prophecy is worded leaves a lot of room for interpretation in my opinion;
Maerum Queen: "We do not know. But she will open up the ancient shrine, and bring light to darkness. She will destroy a Snapjaw with her spear, give witness of her mission, and then she will reunite us."
'Give witness'? That could be as simple as April telling them that she is on a quest to restore the Balance, it's very open-ended don't you agree? Also, had she gone to Alais first, since the Teller already knew that April was the Windbringer then the Teller could've functioned as that witness, could she not? Regardless, she shouldn't be required to show any Talismans or complete any tests according to "The Scripture Of Breaking":
"One stone to the gentle souls that sing in the dark and shape the earth between their toes. One stone to the watchers of the woods, the ones who are outside. One stone to the two that make one, of air and of sea. And one stone to the keepers of the dark flame, the eternally dark, the mariners. When the time comes for the disk to be whole again, one person will make a journey to the four who hold the pieces, and the pieces will be given willingly, because there will be no doubt to the righteousness of this person."
I don't see how putting April through tests is the equivalent of 'be given willingly' and 'no doubt to the righteousness of this person'.
As for the Gordon issue; I realize that the story was about April, but since April is a Wave then her actions will result in chain reactions that will remain in the universe forever. It's for this very reason I am asking the question about Gordon; From what I understand, potential guardians aren't guaranteed to be Guardians of the Balance. It only means that the tower will accept them due to, let's say biology. If all potential guardians were in balance then there would be no need for the three trials, right?
The big question is; Did April Ryan restore the Balance?
My answer would be no, because of the event that took place in Stark after Gordon was installed as Guardian; The Collapse. After that dreams only passed from Stark to Arcadia, not both ways as it has always been.
So, what if Gordon had the 'correct' biology, but would've failed the three trials? Since he was still without his chaotic side when the face-off in the Guardian's tower occurs, he wouldn't have been in balance and thus wouldn't have passed the trials. So the only way he could've made it to the Guardian's tower to begin with would be if he followed April closely, then crossed on the bridge that materialized after April solved the three trials, right?
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#8
Posted 18 February 2016 - 23:01
After solving the puzzle in the cave, you have to go back (still not enough evidence apparantly) and use the Talisman to open a secret niche in the cave that actually holds the piece of the stone.
Also, I always took the collapse to be what happened because of the return to balance. Too much magic had leaked into Stark, and was actually being used to power a lot of things. The loss of magic when the balance was restored caused those things to stop working, hence the "collapse". The Balance was concerned with the levels of Chaos and Order in the Twin Worlds.
April is the savior of the Balance, and will cause it's eventual destruction with the reunification of the Twin Worlds. Dreamfall is not concerned that, which is why the Guardian told April her role was done here. Zoe, as a Dreamer is the one who is supposed to fix the Dream issue. The Dreams are not a part of the Balance, but rather Reality itself.
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#9
Posted 18 February 2016 - 23:29
After solving the puzzle in the cave, you have to go back (still not enough evidence apparantly) and use the Talisman to open a secret niche in the cave that actually holds the piece of the stone.
Also, I always took the collapse to be what happened because of the return to balance. Too much magic had leaked into Stark, and was actually being used to power a lot of things. The loss of magic when the balance was restored caused those things to stop working, hence the "collapse". The Balance was concerned with the levels of Chaos and Order in the Twin Worlds.
April is the savior of the Balance, and will cause it's eventual destruction with the reunification of the Twin Worlds. Dreamfall is not concerned that, which is why the Guardian told April her role was done here. Zoe, as a Dreamer is the one who is supposed to fix the Dream issue. The Dreams are not a part of the Balance, but rather Reality itself.
Ah! I rechecked the wiki and you are entirely correct; the Talisman WAS required to get a hold of the stone piece. Thank you very much for the correction! I have been wrong all this time.. But that must mean that the "Scripture of Breaking" is wrong too, correct?
You know.. Your take on The Collapse makes a lot of sense too, especially in regards to this:
From the official TLJ site:
Assuming of course that the transportation and communication systems that were lost was operated by magic. Hmm.. I wonder if it would be at all possible to find that out?
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#10
Posted 21 February 2016 - 18:43
I would vote on the honest mistake (maybe by Tobias, or maybe by the writers), but since Vestrum Tobias is long out of play, it's very unlikely we will see any ramifications of this. But you did indeed find a curious contradiction.
Regarding the talisman, it's very unlikely it was a bogus, and it was indeed a integral part of the quest, so, I believe it wasn't the only reason the chaos storm struck the white dragon down. The words the captain Nebavey and Luiec used to describe it were quite intriguing. Chaos Storm caused by a magical vortex? Who else in the game was a chaos aligned characters and was known to be of a magical vortex nature? I believe the Chaos Storm that cause the sinking of the White Dragon was actually Gordon's Chaos Vortex form in Arcadia, and it was deliberately trying to stop April Ryan from reaching Alais.
About Gordon being able to complete the trials, we could have at least two explanations:
1 - The Trials are held only once per passing of the torch from a guardian to another and he simply followed after April completed the trials on her own (at least the final trial had to be done this way, as a key part on finishing it was curiously, Crow).
2 - He did indeed complete at least some of the trials on his own. It's implied that he was at least apt and resourceful enough, even without his magic/soul part that was held inside the vortex. Actually, both of parts seemed to be quite strong, in itself. The trials did not measure "the balance" inside a person, but each trial had a different characteristic to test for.
Magic88889, It is quite interesting to see the Collapse related in this way to the balance, and I hadn't really put enough thought into it. It does fit. What if it was McAllen's company, the MTI and the Church of the Voltec that introduced magic related products to Stark? Not sure if this would have been the case, but it's curious enough to see that Arcadia's magic was seeping through into Stark, and with Gordon's taking of the Guardian 'throne', he managed to correct that. However, Azadi technology could be linked to Stark's "science and logic" having seeped through to Arcadia?
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#11
Posted 21 February 2016 - 19:24
1 - The Trials are held only once per passing of the torch from a guardian to another and he simply followed after April completed the trials on her own (at least the final trial had to be done this way, as a key part on finishing it was curiously, Crow).
2 - He did indeed complete at least some of the trials on his own. It's implied that he was at least apt and resourceful enough, even without his magic/soul part that was held inside the vortex. Actually, both of parts seemed to be quite strong, in itself. The trials did not measure "the balance" inside a person, but each trial had a different characteristic to test for.
April's ability to reach the Well of Making was a test for Magic, and as we later learn in DFC, Crow is Magic.
After arriving at the Tower as already mentioned in another post, Gordon would have had to cross the bridge April created with her use of Magic. Metaphorically, April was Gordon's bridge to the Guardianship. Unfortunately, we can not know Gordon's trials.
In regard to the Collapse, I have always assumed that it was representational of the reset in both worlds of magic and science. However, the previous posts of all of you, have open the door to a deeper connection.
Correction: The third trial was the Trial of Matter. April completed this trial through the use of Magic (Crow).
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#12
Posted 22 February 2016 - 15:26
After arriving at the Tower as already mentioned in another post, Gordon would have had to cross the bridge April created with her use of Magic. Metaphorically, April was Gordon's bridge to the Guardianship. Unfortunately, we can not know Gordon's trials.
Not necessarily. Adrian said something about how everyone has to find their own way. Gordon could have completed his own three trials and never come across anything April did until he got to the Well. He could have been in his own "copy" of the Guardian's Realm until then.
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#13
Posted 22 February 2016 - 18:32
Not necessarily. Adrian said something about how everyone has to find their own way. Gordon could have completed his own three trials and never come across anything April did until he got to the Well. He could have been in his own "copy" of the Guardian's Realm until then.
In DF when April visits Gordon and sees the remake of the Guardian's Realm, the bridge appeared to be a permanent part of the landscape. However as you have pointed out, the bridge could be individual to April - which brings me back to the beginning. This is Lady Alvane's story about April and the Balance, and not Gordon and the Balance. As curious as myself and others may be, Gordon's trials can not be known unless Ragnar chooses to reveal them.
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#14
Posted 23 February 2016 - 19:34
Magic88889, It is quite interesting to see the Collapse related in this way to the balance, and I hadn't really put enough thought into it. It does fit. What if it was McAllen's company, the MTI and the Church of the Voltec that introduced magic related products to Stark? Not sure if this would have been the case, but it's curious enough to see that Arcadia's magic was seeping through into Stark, and with Gordon's taking of the Guardian 'throne', he managed to correct that. However, Azadi technology could be linked to Stark's "science and logic" having seeped through to Arcadia?
In Dreamfall, April complained about the Azadi's intolerance toward magic, and implied that it was hypocritical because their own technology also depended on magic. They have a major beef with "magicals" (long-running wars can do that...), and have the control-freak aspects so common to imperial powers. So they understand and use magic (specializing in alchemy, perhaps?), but they don't like seeing in anyone else's hands or used against them. And their strong cultural bias toward Order would like to see it replacing the Chaos of magic. The engineer Ferdow's comments suggest that they have been building toward that goal for the past century.
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#15
Posted 23 February 2016 - 22:22
Regarding the talisman, it's very unlikely it was a bogus, and it was indeed a integral part of the quest, so, I believe it wasn't the only reason the chaos storm struck the white dragon down. The words the captain Nebavey and Luiec used to describe it were quite intriguing. Chaos Storm caused by a magical vortex? Who else in the game was a chaos aligned characters and was known to be of a magical vortex nature? I believe the Chaos Storm that cause the sinking of the White Dragon was actually Gordon's Chaos Vortex form in Arcadia, and it was deliberately trying to stop April Ryan from reaching Alais.
But why would Gordon want to stop April from reaching Alais? McAllen said that April was a necessary evil, for lack of a better term, for his plan to come to completion. He couldn't acquire the four stones himself, and assuming he wasn't bullshitting, he did say that he had ample opportunity to kill her(by proxy) in Arcadia but didn't. Regardless, he DID need her to fetch the stones and as soon as she had them all and returned to Marcuria, the Tyren invaded the city.
Since we know that the Tyren were working with the Vanguard, it's reasonable to assume that McAllen commanded the invasion and capture of April. The very next April dialogue after the disk was recreated is this;
April: "Oh my God, it's an army, heading this way! And they got the road blocked! Where's a Shift when you need one? I'm in real trouble here. Come on....Shift! I did it the last time I was scared out of my mind, and I don't feel any safer now. It's not working, I'm just gonna have to hide out in the -- Oh!"
Then the shift happens. Lucky escape!
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