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Vestrum Tobias: Honest mistakes or deliberate lies?


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#1 Neurotic

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Posted 17 February 2016 - 17:37

When Tobias tells April the story of the Balance, he says that when the Divide had been created one of the Kin said: "This disc is a counterpart to the original disc, which has become this realm and the key to which has been split and divided in four ... The key is the disc, and the disc is this realm. Know only this: The Guardian's Realm cannot be broken unless the disc is broken ... but nor can it be repaired without the disc being repaired. The four pieces that is the key will be given to the six of you who are to be taken to Arcadia for safe keeping. Yet the key will never be complete,without the precious stones that adorn each piece. I will keep one, and my fellow Kin three others. Should the day come when this realm must be repaired or the worlds reunited -- and that day will come -- you will assemble the disc and the Kin will come together one last time."
 
If the disc was already split into four pieces after the Divide was created, it contradicts what is written in "The Scripture of Breaking" that April reads in the Enclave Library:
 
"The Scriptures tell us that the disk was kept at the Enclave for many thousands of years, safely guarded from any threat by the respect held by every man and woman for the authority of the Fathers. But with dissent came disobedience, and disobedience brought immorality, and immorality begat theft. Tyren soldiers, aided by Sentinel traitors, attempted to make away with the disk, but were thwarted by the White of the Kin herself, intervening, although forbidden to do so, on behalf of the Fathers. The disc was brought safely back to the Enclave, but the threat would linger in the minds of the Minstrum and the Vestrum. So it became that the disc was melted in the forge of the dragon's mouth, shaped into the elements of four magical people, and given to these respective people for safe keeping until such a time when it was decreed that the disc should once more be whole.
One stone to the gentle souls that sing in the dark and shape the earth between their toes. One stone to the watchers of the woods, the ones who are outside. One stone to the two that make one, of air and of sea. And one stone to the keepers of the dark flame, the eternally dark, the mariners. When the time comes for the disk to be whole again, one person will make a journey to the four who hold the pieces, and the pieces will be given willingly, because there will be no doubt to the righteousness of this person."
 
 
Tobias: "The Scriptures of the Balance. There are thirteen of them. Thirteen is a strong number, rich in tradition and... Did you know the Ayrede High Council consists of thirteern Ministers? No, of course you do not. Thirteen was also the number of the Fathers who begat the Sentinel, and who built the Tower of the Balance."
April: "Where can I find the Scriptures of the Balance?"
Tobias: "Pay a visit to the Sentinel Enclave, located just outside the city, to the east. The Great Library of the Enclave contains every book ever written by an Arcadian Minstrum, and most others as well. Speak with Minstrum Yerin, the Keeper of Books. Tell him I sent you."
 
When you get there you learn that there are heaps of books missing, the only one you get to read is "The Scripture of Breaking". You also learn that Tobias has kept "The Second Scripture of the Balance: The Scripture of Song" for over a week.
 
Dialogue from chapter 5:
 
Tobias: "With the truth. That you are the one who will watch over us for a thousand years. That you are of the Balance, and the Balance is in you. That you are the one born into the heaviest duty of them all. You are the Guardian to be, April, the Thirteenth Guardian of the Balance."
 
Tobias: "It is yours. The Fathers have only kept it safe for the day when the Thirteenth Guardian would come to collect it. And now you are here. Please, take it. It is the Talisman of the Balance, known to but a few. It is mentioned in one text only, the Scripture of Reunification, one of the thirteen Scriptures of the Balance."
 
He also claims that the Talisman has been kept at the Enclave gathering dust for over 10.000 years, and that it is mentioned once in the 13th Scripture of the Balance. If this is true then every single person who has read the scriptures should at the very least know about it's existence.  
 
Since Tobias appears to contradict the Scripture of the Balance as pointed out earlier, and tells April that she is the 13th guardian, which turns out to be incorrect too. Could he have been deliberately lying to her from the very beginning? Wouldn't it have been beneficial for April to read the ONE scripture of the Balance that, according to Tobias, mentions her directly? Consider how different the story would've been if Tobias hadn't 'mistakenly' given the Talisman to April:
 
-The sinking of the White Dragon.
 
Two possibilities here; 
 
1. Since it is suggested in dialogue that the Talisman is what materialized the chaos storm which would make sense since this is the first time we see it outside of April's dreams, if she didn't have the Talisman then she would've made it safely to Alais on time because there would've been no storm to avoid. Here's some dialogue;
 
Captain Nebevay: "Aye, by the mercy of Jaal, it's a Chaos storm. Where in damnation did it come from this quickly? And what's pulling it here? Navigator, change our course! We must away from the stormfront and to safe harbor!"
 
Tun Luiec: "It is a Chaos storm, a strong storm caught in a magical vortex, drawn to strong magic like bees to honey. I have never seen one with my own eyes, but I have heard stories."
 
2. With no way to sabotage the spirit compass, it is likely that they would've been able to make safe passage to Ge'en, forcing April to look for passage to reach Alais.
 
Either way she would've arrived at Alais and spoken to the Alatiens BEFORE the Maerum. 
 
Anyone have anything to add on this? Something I've overlooked? Thoughts? Criticism? Let's have it! :D

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#2 Kari2

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 04:50

Tobias, Cortez, Father Raul and Adrian as well as the unknowns Cortez was in contact with in Marcuria, thought that April would be the next Guardian. The Blue of the Kin knew who she was although it may not have included being the 13th Guardian.  McAllen also saw her as a threat which is why he had been searching for her long before April met Cortez. This just goes to show that the future can not fully be known.  It also provided a surprise ending to the game.

 

Had April not been given the Talisman of the 13th Guardian, her quest would have ended in Alais and the Tyrens  would have invaded Marcuria before any more of the disc and jewels could have been recovered. In this telling of the story by Lady Alvane, there apparently was one path for April to the Guardian's Realm.


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#3 Neurotic

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 04:57

Tobias, Cortez, Father Raul and Adrian as well as the unknowns Cortez was in contact with in Marcuria, thought that April would be the next Guardian. The Blue of the Kin knew who she was although it may not have included being the 13th Guardian.  McAllen also saw her as a threat which is why he had been searching for her long before April met Cortez. This just goes to show that the future can not fully be known.  It also provided a surprise ending to the game.

 

Had April not been given the Talisman of the 13th Guardian, her quest would have ended in Alais and the Tyrens  would have invaded Marcuria before any more of the disc and jewels could have been recovered. In this telling of the story by Lady Alvane, there apparently was one path for April to the Guardian's Realm.

Why would her journey have ended on Alais without the Talisman? 



#4 magic88889

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 09:44

I don't know about the rest of it, but April needed the Talisman in order to prove she was the Waterstiller and get the Maerum half of their part of the disc. 

 

She also used it on the ship on the way there.  She actually wouldn't have ended up on Alais at all if not for it.  And finally, she needed it to get past the Chaos Vortex in the Guardian's Realm, and reunite it with Gordon.


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#5 Neurotic

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 13:58

I don't know about the rest of it, but April needed the Talisman in order to prove she was the Waterstiller and get the Maerum half of their part of the disc. 

 

She also used it on the ship on the way there.  She actually wouldn't have ended up on Alais at all if not for it.  And finally, she needed it to get past the Chaos Vortex in the Guardian's Realm, and reunite it with Gordon.

In regards to her reunion with Gordon... How did he manage to get himself past the three trials? 



#6 Kari2

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 18:42

Why would her journey have ended on Alais without the Talisman? 

 

In addition to Magic88889 's post, only the Talisman could unlock the vault in the cave just outside the Maerum City.

 

 

In regards to her reunion with Gordon... How did he manage to get himself past the three trials? 

 

This story was was not about Gordon, it was about April, the friends she made, the obstacles she had to overcome and the help she received.

 

 

Note: That question is one I wonder about every time I play the game - I am also curious. 


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#7 Neurotic

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 22:47

In addition to Magic88889 's post, only the Talisman could unlock the vault in the cave just outside the Maerum City.

 

 

 

This story was was not about Gordon, it was about April, the friends she made, the obstacles she had to overcome and the help she received.

 

 

Note: That question is one I wonder about every time I play the game - I am also curious. 

Unlocking the Maerum vault required four crystals found scattered around the area, the Talisman played no part in it's unlocking. In-game you show the Talisman to the Maerum queen as one part of the prophecy, however, the way that part of the prophecy is worded leaves a lot of room for interpretation in my opinion;

Maerum Queen: "We do not know. But she will open up the ancient shrine, and bring light to darkness. She will destroy a Snapjaw with her spear, give witness of her mission, and then she will reunite us."

'Give witness'? That could be as simple as April telling them that she is on a quest to restore the Balance, it's very open-ended don't you agree? Also, had she gone to Alais first, since the Teller already knew that April was the Windbringer then the Teller could've functioned as that witness, could she not? Regardless, she shouldn't be required to show any Talismans or complete any tests according to "The Scripture Of Breaking":

"One stone to the gentle souls that sing in the dark and shape the earth between their toes. One stone to the watchers of the woods, the ones who are outside. One stone to the two that make one, of air and of sea. And one stone to the keepers of the dark flame, the eternally dark, the mariners. When the time comes for the disk to be whole again, one person will make a journey to the four who hold the pieces, and the pieces will be given willingly, because there will be no doubt to the righteousness of this person."

I don't see how putting April through tests is the equivalent of 'be given willingly' and 'no doubt to the righteousness of this person'.

As for the Gordon issue; I realize that the story was about April, but since April is a Wave then her actions will result in chain reactions that will remain in the universe forever. It's for this very reason I am asking the question about Gordon; From what I understand, potential guardians aren't guaranteed to be Guardians of the Balance. It only means that the tower will accept them due to, let's say biology. If all potential guardians were in balance then there would be no need for the three trials, right?

The big question is; Did April Ryan restore the Balance?

My answer would be no, because of the event that took place in Stark after Gordon was installed as Guardian; The Collapse. After that dreams only passed from Stark to Arcadia, not both ways as it has always been. 

So, what if Gordon had the 'correct' biology, but would've failed the three trials? Since he was still without his chaotic side when the face-off in the Guardian's tower occurs, he wouldn't have been in balance and thus wouldn't have passed the trials. So the only way he could've made it to the Guardian's tower to begin with would be if he followed April closely, then crossed on the bridge that materialized after April solved the three trials, right? 


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#8 magic88889

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 23:01

After solving the puzzle in the cave, you have to go back (still not enough evidence apparantly) and use the Talisman to open a secret niche in the cave that actually holds the piece of the stone. 

 

Also, I always took the collapse to be what happened because of the return to balance.  Too much magic had leaked into Stark, and was actually being used to power a lot of things.  The loss of magic when the balance was restored caused those things to stop working, hence the "collapse".  The Balance was concerned with the levels of Chaos and Order in the Twin Worlds.

 

April is the savior of the Balance, and will cause it's eventual destruction with the reunification of the Twin Worlds.  Dreamfall is not concerned that, which is why the Guardian told April her role was done here.  Zoe, as a Dreamer is the one who is supposed to fix the Dream issue.  The Dreams are not a part of the Balance, but rather Reality itself. 


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#9 Neurotic

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 23:29

After solving the puzzle in the cave, you have to go back (still not enough evidence apparantly) and use the Talisman to open a secret niche in the cave that actually holds the piece of the stone. 

 

Also, I always took the collapse to be what happened because of the return to balance.  Too much magic had leaked into Stark, and was actually being used to power a lot of things.  The loss of magic when the balance was restored caused those things to stop working, hence the "collapse".  The Balance was concerned with the levels of Chaos and Order in the Twin Worlds.

 

April is the savior of the Balance, and will cause it's eventual destruction with the reunification of the Twin Worlds.  Dreamfall is not concerned that, which is why the Guardian told April her role was done here.  Zoe, as a Dreamer is the one who is supposed to fix the Dream issue.  The Dreams are not a part of the Balance, but rather Reality itself. 


Ah! I rechecked the wiki and you are entirely correct; the Talisman WAS required to get a hold of the stone piece. Thank you very much for the correction! I have been wrong all this time.. But that must mean that the "Scripture of Breaking" is wrong too, correct?

You know.. Your take on The Collapse makes a lot of sense too, especially in regards to this:

From the official TLJ site:
 

"Ten years ago, something happened…
 
No one can remember exactly what happened, or why, but it changed the world. Completely.
 
After almost two centuries of complete freedom, we were trapped, earthbound, the skies above us closed, cities on the other side of our planet inaccessible. For a time, we were powerless, frozen, shocked into silence by events that we couldn't explain or understand...
 
...and then, slowly but surely, we picked up the pieces and moved on. A week, maybe two, and civilisation brushed off the dust of the past and set its sight on the future. So we couldn't fly without wings anymore. So we couldn't communicate with those who had moved beyond our space. After all, we had lived like this before, and we could do so again.
 
In a post-Collapse Stark, alternative methods of transportation soon appeared. Together with the Vactrax, one of the earliest, and most popular, was the hydrofoil.
 
Moving at impossible speeds close to the ocean surface, the hydrofoil connected us again with our relatives on the other side of the Earth. Before Vactrax tunnels snaked their way to every major city, the hydrofoils were indispensable. And they are still in use, particularly across the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans - connecting major cities like, for example, Newport and WATI City.
 
Ten years on, humanity has learned to live in a changed world, and while the memory of the Collapse lingers, it's not something we dwell on. So we don't quite know what happened, and we can't really recall the details of those dark days, but life goes on, we have regained our freedom, our wings, and the future is as bright as it ever was."

Assuming of course that the transportation and communication systems that were lost was operated by magic. Hmm.. I wonder if it would be at all possible to find that out?

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#10 AlkYama

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 18:43

I would vote on the honest mistake (maybe by Tobias, or maybe by the writers), but since Vestrum Tobias is long out of play, it's very unlikely we will see any ramifications of this. But you did indeed find a curious contradiction.

Regarding the talisman, it's very unlikely it was a bogus, and it was indeed a integral part of the quest, so, I believe it wasn't the only reason the chaos storm struck the white dragon down. The words the captain Nebavey and Luiec used to describe it were quite intriguing. Chaos Storm caused by a magical vortex? Who else in the game was a chaos aligned characters and was known to be of a magical vortex nature? I believe the Chaos Storm that cause the sinking of the White Dragon was actually Gordon's Chaos Vortex form in Arcadia, and it was deliberately trying to stop April Ryan from reaching Alais.

About Gordon being able to complete the trials, we could have at least two explanations:

1 - The Trials are held only once per passing of the torch from a guardian to another and he simply followed after April completed the trials on her own (at least the final trial had to be done this way, as a key part on finishing it was curiously, Crow).

 

2 - He did indeed complete at least some of the trials on his own. It's implied that he was at least apt and resourceful enough, even without his magic/soul part that was held inside the vortex. Actually, both of parts seemed to be quite strong, in itself. The trials did not measure "the balance" inside a person, but each trial had a different characteristic to test for.

Magic88889, It is quite interesting to see the Collapse related in this way to the balance, and I hadn't really put enough thought into it. It does fit. What if it was McAllen's company, the MTI and the Church of the Voltec that introduced magic related products to Stark? Not sure if this would have been the case, but it's curious enough to see that Arcadia's magic was seeping through into Stark, and with Gordon's taking of the Guardian 'throne', he managed to correct that. However, Azadi technology could be linked to Stark's "science and logic" having seeped through to Arcadia?


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#11 Kari2

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 19:24

1 - The Trials are held only once per passing of the torch from a guardian to another and he simply followed after April completed the trials on her own (at least the final trial had to be done this way, as a key part on finishing it was curiously, Crow).

 

2 - He did indeed complete at least some of the trials on his own. It's implied that he was at least apt and resourceful enough, even without his magic/soul part that was held inside the vortex. Actually, both of parts seemed to be quite strong, in itself. The trials did not measure "the balance" inside a person, but each trial had a different characteristic to test for.
 

 

April's ability to reach the Well of Making was a test for Magic, and as we later learn in DFC, Crow is Magic.

 

After arriving at the Tower as already mentioned in another post, Gordon would have had to cross the bridge April created with her use of Magic. Metaphorically, April was Gordon's bridge to the Guardianship. Unfortunately, we can not know Gordon's trials.

 

In regard to the Collapse, I have always assumed that it was representational of the reset in both worlds of magic and science. However, the previous posts of all of you, have open the door to a deeper connection.

 

 

Correction: The third trial was the Trial of Matter. April completed this trial through the use of Magic (Crow).


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#12 Indrid Cold

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 15:26

After arriving at the Tower as already mentioned in another post, Gordon would have had to cross the bridge April created with her use of Magic. Metaphorically, April was Gordon's bridge to the Guardianship. Unfortunately, we can not know Gordon's trials.

Not necessarily. Adrian said something about how everyone has to find their own way. Gordon could have completed his own three trials and never come across anything April did until he got to the Well. He could have been in his own "copy" of the Guardian's Realm until then.


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#13 Kari2

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 18:32

Not necessarily. Adrian said something about how everyone has to find their own way. Gordon could have completed his own three trials and never come across anything April did until he got to the Well. He could have been in his own "copy" of the Guardian's Realm until then.

 

In DF when April visits Gordon and sees the remake of the Guardian's Realm, the bridge appeared to be a permanent part of the landscape. However as you have pointed out, the bridge could be individual to April - which brings me back to the beginning. This is Lady  Alvane's story about April and the Balance, and not Gordon and the Balance. As curious as myself and others may be, Gordon's trials can not be known unless Ragnar chooses to reveal them.


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#14 Vanya-illin

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 19:34

Magic88889, It is quite interesting to see the Collapse related in this way to the balance, and I hadn't really put enough thought into it. It does fit. What if it was McAllen's company, the MTI and the Church of the Voltec that introduced magic related products to Stark? Not sure if this would have been the case, but it's curious enough to see that Arcadia's magic was seeping through into Stark, and with Gordon's taking of the Guardian 'throne', he managed to correct that. However, Azadi technology could be linked to Stark's "science and logic" having seeped through to Arcadia?

In Dreamfall, April complained about the Azadi's intolerance toward magic, and implied that it was hypocritical because their own technology also depended on magic. They have a major beef with "magicals" (long-running wars can do that...), and have the control-freak aspects so common to imperial powers. So they understand and use magic (specializing in alchemy, perhaps?), but they don't like seeing in anyone else's hands or used against them. And their strong cultural bias toward Order would like to see it replacing the Chaos of magic. The engineer Ferdow's comments suggest that they have been building toward that goal for the past century.


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#15 Neurotic

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 22:22

Regarding the talisman, it's very unlikely it was a bogus, and it was indeed a integral part of the quest, so, I believe it wasn't the only reason the chaos storm struck the white dragon down. The words the captain Nebavey and Luiec used to describe it were quite intriguing. Chaos Storm caused by a magical vortex? Who else in the game was a chaos aligned characters and was known to be of a magical vortex nature? I believe the Chaos Storm that cause the sinking of the White Dragon was actually Gordon's Chaos Vortex form in Arcadia, and it was deliberately trying to stop April Ryan from reaching Alais.

But why would Gordon want to stop April from reaching Alais? McAllen said that April was a necessary evil, for lack of a better term, for his plan to come to completion. He couldn't acquire the four stones himself, and assuming he wasn't bullshitting, he did say that he had ample opportunity to kill her(by proxy) in Arcadia but didn't. Regardless, he DID need her to fetch the stones and as soon as she had them all and returned to Marcuria, the Tyren invaded the city.

Since we know that the Tyren were working with the Vanguard, it's reasonable to assume that McAllen commanded the invasion and capture of April. The very next April dialogue after the disk was recreated is this;

April: "Oh my God, it's an army, heading this way! And they got the road blocked! Where's a Shift when you need one? I'm in real trouble here. Come on....Shift! I did it the last time I was scared out of my mind, and I don't feel any safer now. It's not working, I'm just gonna have to hide out in the -- Oh!"

Then the shift happens. Lucky escape! 


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