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PROPAST ALL A DREAM!

Zoe Propast April Marcuria Dreamer

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#41 Alcarmo

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 20:34

I don´t think it´s wise to use "propast all a dream" as a name for topic and even with all capitals.... "theory about propast" would be much safer for those who don´t want to see any spoilers even if they don´t look to spoiler thread...just my opinion.

 

Propast is part of Europolis and Europolis is part of Stark....and they´re all real....

Zoë just dreamed herself here (because she was here already in the past, that´s no secret)

When she wakes up, she will be more likely in another place...but everything that happened in previous books, really happened.


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#42 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 20:42

I don´t think it´s wise to use "propast all a dream" as a name for topic and even with all capitals.... "theory about propast" would be much safer for those who don´t want to see any spoilers even if they don´t look to spoiler thread...just my opinion.

 

Yeah...there are a couple of threads that I've been eyeing and debating retitling because they seem a little... ....over the top and bordering on potentially spoiler-y. Or at least planting a theory in someone's head that might alter their experience if they haven't played yet. 

 

I've just been busier than expected this weekend and I'm having some trouble staying on top of things. But would anyone mind terribly if I rename the thread?


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#43 Vainamoinen

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 20:51

When she wakes up, she will be more likely in another place...but everything that happened in previous books, really happened.


I don't think there's much of an alternative.

The problem with making Propast the 'dream within a dream' is that what happened in it would be meaningless. Friendships with Nela, Mira or Ada, meaningless. The suffering of the people who died in the blast, the democracy that was wiped away, meaningless. Essentially, we would have spent 10 hours with a meaningless story. Where's the fun in that? :mellow:


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#44 Ikon

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 20:56

I don't think there's much of an alternative.

The problem with making Propast the 'dream within a dream' is that what happened in it would be meaningless. Friendships with Nela, Mira or Ada, meaningless. The suffering of the people who died in the blast, the democracy that was wiped away, meaningless. Essentially, we would have spent 10 hours with a meaningless story. Where's the fun in that? :mellow:

 

That's part of the reason I lean toward Propast being real and Zoe simply dreaming herself into it, like she does in Marcuria.

 

*notice how I just casually mention Zoe dreaming herself into Propast, like this is something people do every day.... :)


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#45 Quatipu

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 21:20

I don't think that Propast is just a dream created by Zoe. As others already said it is more likely a real place and Zoe dreamed herself there.

If it was just a dream why would there be the sequences in Roman's office (with Friedman) after she is gone? If she had created Propast, wouldn't she have remembered/known everything inside this world?

And what about the girl she first met in Storytime? The girl seems to recognize her in Propast. I don't see why she would have 'created' the Propast version of this girl.

 

 

On the other hand when Zoe talked with Lux, I got the impression that he told her, that she was (already) a First Dreamer/Dreamer with world creating powers, too.

 

The more I think about the question the more I get the feeling that the answer is irrelevant...


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#46 inspector

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 21:37

Now I still wonder the "Whose dreams were you dreaming Dreamer? The Sky God was looking for you" part. What does that  mean and who is the person saying these lines?


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#47 NicoleCT

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 21:54

Yeah...there are a couple of threads that I've been eyeing and debating retitling because they seem a little... ....over the top and bordering on potentially spoiler-y. Or at least planting a theory in someone's head that might alter their experience if they haven't played yet. 

 

I've just been busier than expected this weekend and I'm having some trouble staying on top of things. But would anyone mind terribly if I rename the thread?

I titled the thread in ALL CAPS simply because I'm a lawyer and we title all of our Motions, Objections, Memoranda,etc., in ALL CAPS and it was mere habit. Please worry about more important things. As for the Title itself - this section very clearly states it is a spoiler section, but! unless Red Thread Games has put out a release stating "NicoleCT's post is exactly what the whole story is about, no need for a Book 5!" - I don't get the problem. It is obviously a theory to anyone reading it, nevermind the fact that I very clearly state it is my theory. So, yes, I Object to changing the title. 


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#48 inspector

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 22:01

I titled the thread in ALL CAPS simply because I'm a lawyer and we title all of our Motions, Objections, Memoranda,etc., in ALL CAPS and it was mere habit. Please worry about more important things. As for the Title itself - this section very clearly states it is a spoiler section, but! unless Red Thread Games has put out a release stating "NicoleCT's post is exactly what the whole story is about, no need for a Book 5!" - I don't get the problem. It is obviously a theory to anyone reading it, nevermind the fact that I very clearly state it is my theory. So, yes, I Object to changing the title. 

 

But that is a good theory and could very well be the truth and a spoiler.



#49 Indrid Cold

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 22:12

The best reason to think Propast is real is, I think, the fact that at the end of Book 4 the "choice recap" said that whether Friedman got shot or not is important. If it was fake and Zoë has woken up for real now, it wouldn't be important.

 

My theory is that Zoë's body was brought to Propast so that Friedman and/or his "fraülein" can keep an eye on both Zoës.



#50 lunitaire

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 22:14

I'm going to make the guess that Falk Friedman is going to break Zoe out of that locked hospital room. Whoever is watching her in the room is the one who sent the police after her in Propast, which would likely be Helena Chang + Wati Corp.

 

I don't think that Propast is just a dream created by Zoe. As others already said it is more likely a real place and Zoe dreamed herself there.

If it was just a dream why would there be the sequences in Roman's office (with Friedman) after she is gone? If she had created Propast, wouldn't she have remembered/known everything inside this world?

And what about the girl she first met in Storytime? The girl seems to recognize her in Propast. I don't see why she would have 'created' the Propast version of this girl.

 

 

On the other hand when Zoe talked with Lux, I got the impression that he told her, that she was (already) a First Dreamer/Dreamer with world creating powers, too.

 

The more I think about the question the more I get the feeling that the answer is irrelevant...

 

  Lastly I think either Propast is real or its a world between worlds, aka a shared dream. All the people in Propast have to exist or else Zoe's choices there will have no meaning for the last book, which would be antithetical for such a choice driven game. However Quatipu brings up a very interesting idea that Zoe could have dreamed Propast into existance. If that is the case, I am unsure of how that would tie in with all the people from Stark that she has dream created in Propast.


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#51 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 22:21

I titled the thread in ALL CAPS simply because I'm a lawyer and we title all of our Motions, Objections, Memoranda,etc., in ALL CAPS and it was mere habit. Please worry about more important things. As for the Title itself - this section very clearly states it is a spoiler section, but! unless Red Thread Games has put out a release stating "NicoleCT's post is exactly what the whole story is about, no need for a Book 5!" - I don't get the problem. It is obviously a theory to anyone reading it, nevermind the fact that I very clearly state it is my theory. So, yes, I Object to changing the title. 

 

  1. I didn't even mention the all caps thing. 
  2. We have a policy of avoiding putting spoilers in the titles of posts, regardless of what section they're in. That's why it came up. 
  3. The concern was never that you had absolutely unraveled the central mystery to the story, but rather if one of the members who either hasn't played yet or is just starting pops on the forum, they may well see this title and assume that it is a statement of fact, etc. 

I was merely asking what other people thought since someone else brought up something I was already thinking. 

 

It's fine if you don't want me to change the title. I haven't. I'm just not sure why you're getting so defensive. 


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#52 magic88889

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 22:25

I titled the thread in ALL CAPS simply because I'm a lawyer and we title all of our Motions, Objections, Memoranda,etc., in ALL CAPS and it was mere habit. Please worry about more important things. As for the Title itself - this section very clearly states it is a spoiler section, but! unless Red Thread Games has put out a release stating "NicoleCT's post is exactly what the whole story is about, no need for a Book 5!" - I don't get the problem. It is obviously a theory to anyone reading it, nevermind the fact that I very clearly state it is my theory. So, yes, I Object to changing the title. 

 

The problem is that you can see the title from the main page if it is the last topic to have been updated.  No need to even enter the spoiler section.  Having it in all caps makes is even more noticeable, but it's the actual title that is the issue.

I was actually a bit upset when I saw the title there, as I had not plated book 4 yet and would have wished to find this out on my own.  For somebody like me, who has long believed that Zoe was still asleep, would have greatly appreciated finding out my theory was correct in the game.  I won't say that the game was ruined, but I missed out on that "aha! I was right!!" moment.

 

 

 

As for the discussion.  I think Propast is real.  Zoe was dreaming in Casablanca, and dreamed herself to Propast, just as she has to other placed like Winter, Storytime, and Arcadia.  So all the events happened in the real world, only Zoe was doing them with her "dream body".


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#53 Adam Jensen

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 22:41

I, too, believe Propast to be real. Like several others have said, Zoe just "dreamed herself" there, in the same way she dreamed herself into Arcadia (in DF and then again in DFC). She disappeared from both in the same way as well.

 

There are actually story-related reasons for Propast being real. Had there been only personal developments for Zoe (and maybe those closest to her) in Propast sections, this theory would have been plausible, but, IMHO, there's been too many plot elements important in the bigger picture (hell, the political situation in the whole region is at stake) I really don't think all that will have had been a dream. It would not add up narratively.

 

EDIT:

 

As for the discussion.  I think Propast is real.  Zoe was dreaming in Casablanca, and dreamed herself to Propast, just as she has to other placed like Winter, Storytime, and Arcadia.  So all the events happened in the real world, only Zoe was doing them with her "dream body".

 

BTW (slightly off-topic), was Faith's limbo ever called Winter anywhere ingame, back in DF? Or was it just in the promotional materials? I replayed DF recently and I don't remember anyone referring to it as "Winter".



#54 Quatipu

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 22:56

I think only the chapter was called "Winter" ingame. But if I remember correctly, it was also wintertime in Mercuria...



#55 magic88889

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 23:14

http://tlj.wikia.com/wiki/Winter

 

That's the only thing I've ever head it called.  Maybe not in the game, but everywhere else.  Even by Ragnar himself.  I'd take that as official.



#56 Mapolq

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 04:01

I'll go with the idea that Propast is the place where people connected to the Dreamer go (Winter), though Zoe dreams herself in there in a different way - I think she's the engine of the Dreamer. In the same way as Faith created her corner of Winter, Zoe creates Propast, which can then be entered by the other people via the Dreamer. Zoe is a much more powerful engine, though, and has enabled the Dreamer to fulfill its potential as WATICorp wished. The world isn't entirely under Zoe's control, though, even unconsciously, as other people can enter it as well and change it.

 

What exactly this means for the situation in Stark is unclear, though. The people in Propast obviously aren't aware that they exist somewhere else (well, most of them most of the time at least), but if this is true we haven't visited post-Dreamfall:TLJ Stark yet...


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#57 Kianismybae

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 19:08

Adding to clarify that the room seems specifically designed to emulate the one at the end of Dreamfall and the reason for that effort should prove interesting at least. One such reason could be that the designers of the room (Chang? Watti? ) know that Storytime Zoe would be able to see the area around her bed so they are "tricking" her with this deception. Though such levels of understanding regarding the world of dreams and Zoe's experience would be hard to explain as well.

I think its not a window it seems more like a "see her live and then a computer screen" may be I see bad cause I play es it without glasses lol

#58 Ikon

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 19:58

It pretty clearly looked like an observation window to me. I'll have to go back and load up a saved game and recheck. Shame on you for making me doubt what I saw :D :P


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#59 Pawlo_86

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 20:17

I just read a theory that half of Propast was real and Zoe dreamed herself into Propast after terorist attack on EYE HQ. Her body was taken somewhere by Friedman.

#60 Ikon

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 20:33

Here's a thought. If Propast is real, and Zoe did dream herself into it, what does that say about Friedman saving Zoe in her apartment? I mean, if she's only dreaming herself into Propast, can she really be shot, or even killed? Yes, she seems to have been injured by the explosion, but is that just because she dreamed that she must have been injured? When she wakes up in her coma bed, is she going to have rejuv marks on her face?


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