144 replies to this topic

[the red of the kin]

Sorry, Hellegennes, I must have accidentally skipped your response.

 

If you don't believe in spiritual things, gods and the rest of it, everything is a body thing. 

 

To believe is to trust something even without evidence.
What is spirituality? Our body is an extremely complex "machine". Our brain evolved in such a way that we developed higher cognition and elaboration capabilities than most other creatures. We question our surrounding and when we don't understand how the laws of the Universe work we make up stories to explain them or just fantasize about them. We wonder about death a lot; of course: it's such an important and unknown part of our life! That's when spirituality chimes in.

Back in the day it was religion and stories about religion. Today it's religion and science fiction.

That's the way I look at it. I love all these stories. That's why I also love TLJ.

 

 

If you don't believe in spiritual things, gods and the rest of it, everything is a body thing. 

 

Yes definitely

 

If you don't believe in spiritual things, gods and the rest of it, everything is a body thing. So the question if sexuality is a body or a mind thing doesn't have any meaning in this context. What I was referring to, on the other hand, when I spoke about sexuality permeating the way of thinking and acting was the fact that sexuality is a character trait, not just a bodily function. And it's not just societal attitudes that play a part in this, it's sexuality itself which plays a role in how you think, i.e. sexuality determines at least part of your way of thinking, apart from other people's attitudes towards you. It is perhaps instrumental in shaping a person's personality.

 

No that's not how I see it. The spirit, or mind, or thought is very much a body thing, in my opinion. I'm sure it doesn't work that way in TLJ, since otherwise explaining reincarnation though biology would be like explaining the Force through midichlorians or whatever...people would just roll their eyes

 

Sexuality does play a big part in who you are and what you. Yet I see sexuality as a canvas on which you paint on. You start with one direction but then you can change it.

 

But is sexuality transmitted through reincarnation, in TLJ? Of course I can't know that for a fact, but I remember the first Ghost in the Shell, where the Puppet master remembers everything but transcends gender.
I'd think that if (and I stress the if) the reincarnated person will remember his/her previous life, I'd think  he/she would in fact transcend gender and sexual orientation.

 

So, if you have a universe where spiritual things exist and character traits are not just chemical reactions in the brain, then sexuality would be transferable (in a reincarnation) as much as personality.

 

ok in TLJ this can happen, because it's pure fantasy

...if in our world spirit would be separate from body I'd still need evidence of reincaration's possibility. But that's just my usual skepticism!

 

Regarding April and Saga, your explanation is a cool theory. However we do know that April was reborn and the way the story is presented it seems like Saga was born at the same time April was reborn. Maybe we were falsely led to believe this and it's just a storytelling trick, but right now the evidence points toward Saga being a continuation of April rather than Saga given birth to April's story.

Yeah it could be a big "ooooo you think April's gonna be reborn, but you're wrooong!" hehehehe

Tell you the truth....I've already stated it elsewhere. I would have preferred April just stay dead. Mind you she's my favorite character of all the saga.
...But I guess I'm just too worried if she's brought back she won't be the merry April from TLJ or the conflicted April from Dreamfall TLJ and she would be a character I won't like....I hope if she comes back (knowing she is/was April) it won't be a letdown.

[magritte]

When we have these reincarnation vs sexuality discussions around TLJ/Dreamfall (seems like there's a lot of them) everyone appears to assume April would be reincarnated as a woman.  Is there some part in TLJ (not played much of that) which indicates that gender survives re-incarnation?

I don't think so.  And in buddhism, I believe you can be reincarnated as a different species, let alone a different gender.

[Hellegennes]

Yeah it could be a big "ooooo you think April's gonna be reborn, but you're wrooong!" hehehehe

Tell you the truth....I've already stated it elsewhere. I would have preferred April just stay dead. Mind you she's my favorite character of all the saga.
...But I guess I'm just too worried if she's brought back she won't be the merry April from TLJ or the conflicted April from Dreamfall TLJ and she would be a character I won't like....I hope if she comes back (knowing she is/was April) it won't be a letdown.

 

Doesn't she say so herself in Kian's hallucinations/dreams? Of course, you could dismiss it as simply the product of his own mind, but that would be cheating.

[the red of the kin]

Doesn't she say so herself in Kian's hallucinations/dreams? Of course, you could dismiss it as simply the product of his own mind, but that would be cheating.

 

Yeah it seems so. I've already resigned to the fact she's reborn and Roper Klacks is the "baddie"

[Hellegennes]

Yeah it seems so. I've already resigned to the fact she's reborn and Roper Klacks is the "baddie"

 

That doesn't mean she's Saga, though. It could be that my own Zombie April theory will pan out.

[Pawlo_86]

I have a new theory about Saga. It releates to the paths and accesing all worlds mentioned in Interlude III. I don't think so that Saga is reborn April. I think that April was Saga's path after completing drawings task. The lost of Saga can be releated to April's death in Myria. Anna is Saga's path after removing of wards. The theory that Brian can be Magnus's path is also interesting. It seems that members of HoAW can strongly affect events in past, present and future. It seems that Saga is Kin but i dont think so that Etta and Magnus are Dragons. I think that Etta is from distant past and Arcadia while Magnus is from distant future and Stark. Their child is children of Balance and Shifter. This can explain why April was a Shifter and child of Balance.

I believe that Dragons have the same presence. They can access every time and place. So Queenie can be new Red Dragon's path. Dragons may be releated to HoAW family somehow.

[Turin231]

I am also in favour to the idea that Hanna is related to Saga. In looks Saga (corrected !) looks really close to Hanna. Especially the shape of the face. But who knows it might be a red herring. I like the idea that April was Saga´s path when shifting after the drawings. Also this reminds me sth i think i remember from the first longest journey. That April was found by her family as a child? Could that mean that when Saga goes to a new path she is not actually born but appears in the age that she was when shifted but without her full memory.  I might be remembering it wrong, though. It makes more sense for Hanna to be Saga´s path after the wards, if Anna had a life as a younger kid in Azadir?   

[the red of the kin]

In looks Hanna looks really close to Hanna.

 

This is awesome

 

(...) April was found by her family as a child? Could that mean that when Saga goes to a new path she is not actually born but appears in the age that she was when shifted but without her full memory.  I might be remembering it wrong, though. It makes more sense for Hanna to be Saga´s path after the wards, if Anna had a life as a younger kid in Azadir?   

 

It could be!

[Turin231]

Lol...I meant Saga....

 

 

EDIT: Plus Hanna has Saga´s eyebrow scar...A scar she got later. Presumingly after she has gone through the April path.

[magritte]

I just had a strange thought.  If April and Likho were lovers, is it possible that Etta is April's daughter?  If she's half-Dolmari, it would account for her coloring.

[the red of the kin]

 

But - who is the mother of someone who is reborn? I would say - him! himself!

 

absolutely! That's what ebing reborn should mean, in my opinion

 

in TLJ you see in the first game scene that the Old White Dragon is the mother of the White Dragon Reborn which is herself! (I assume that she laid that egg which probably yield the White Dragon Reborn)

This is probably not the same process every time as April didn't gave birth to anyone and were still reborned. But with the White Dragon - if i'm correct the white Dragon Reborn is the child of the White Dragon.

 

We know April is the daughter of the White dragon as the dragon calls her "child" (I believe) and the white dragon reborn calls her "sister".  also, the white dragon reborn (her spirit I believe, since something happened to her in the library) calls Saga "sister", right? and Etta is Saga's mother.

If the moment Saga does her first shift is when April starts existing then Saga is April and Etta is the White dragon in April's dream (well this is what I speculate, ok?). Then when Saga crosses the last ward and shifts again might be when we'll meet April once more. Book 5.

 

So, when Etta is reborn as the White Dragon Reborn - Etta herself is the mother of her reborn self!

That would make Saga the sister of the current White Dragon Reborn, because they share the same mother, aaaaaaannnndddd in the same time - Saga would be her daughter - because it is still Etta - after all.
So the Current white kin - which visits Saga in ghost/spirit form - is actually the mother and the sister of Saga!

 

Yeah it could be!

[lars]

I’m not really convinced by the theories where all the female characters are April Ryan, who is the White Kin.

I also find that several dragons seem to be absent from the discussions.

If the Red Kin is hiding in Queenie, I would not be surprised to find the Green Kin behind the Prophet.

I actually think that the Kin have a couple of possibilities for interacting with humans.

 

Either as Cortez and Jacob, maybe Queenie, taking human form which they loose when their human envelope dies (like when falling from the tower).

 

Another possibility could be for a Kin to invest a human mind as a way to interact with the human world. 

This is more of an indirect influence, how to be sure of the paths taken by April, Zoe, Hannah…

 

April  seem to « connect » to the white Kin, as does Saga. Who connects to Zoe is uncertain (Queenie?), and  to Hannah who seem only partially « awoken ».

 

Remains Magnus and Etta. 

They both seem to be magicals, that have build and secured the house.

With the help of Galad?

Who is he ? Zoe’s father? Brian? One of the Kins?

 

Etta and Magnus do not seem to recognize the White Kin.

So where do they come from?

And where does Lady Alvane fit in the picture?

[Hellegennes]

I am also in favour to the idea that Hanna is related to Saga. In looks Saga (corrected !) looks really close to Hanna

 

I don't get it. People talk about how similar they are, yet to my eyes they are completely different. How are these two similar?

 

[jannar85]

Tell you the truth....I've already stated it elsewhere. I would have preferred April just stay dead. Mind you she's my favorite character of all the saga.
...But I guess I'm just too worried if she's brought back she won't be the merry April from TLJ or the conflicted April from Dreamfall TLJ and she would be a character I won't like....I hope if she comes back (knowing she is/was April) it won't be a letdown.

 

Then what about The Longest Journey Home?

"TLJH will tell the story of what happened to April Ryan between TLJ and Dreamfall, as well as her fate after that."

 

The Longest Journey Home will pick up right where The Longest Journey left off, filling in the 10-year gap unaccounted for in Dreamfall. But it will also extend beyond Dreamfall Chapters and conclude April’s adventure. And that comes as good news to the players that have been so invested in her fate over the last dozen years.

 

Source: http://www.gamespot....e/1100-6404653/

 

 

Also, regarding all the other theories: In the above link, Ragnar says this:

 

“The simple answer is that these are two separate and completely different stories, with a very different vibe and tone to them, and very different themes,” says Tørnquist. “The Dreamer Cycle--Dreamfall and Dreamfall Chapters--is primarily about Zoë, and it's a full 3D, direct control adventure. The TLJ games are just about April Ryan, and they are classic 2D point-and-click adventures. It was important for us to maintain that distinction and feel to the two cycles.”

Cycles might be what Saga refers to "walking". Maybe, someone went walking, got born as Zoe as a Dreamer, to save April so that she could be reborn again at HoaW? I also think the spring-thing is a connection. She was born in the spring, so she was given the name April. It's said Zoe is born in January, which is winter....

 

I'm tired, throwing out ideas and it's getting wayyyy to late, so I'm sorry if I have everything wrong Also, notice that Ragnar mention the TLJ games.

 

1902 Brian Westhouse born

1919 Westhouse at sea

1930 Westhouse a journalist in India; meets 'Manny Chavez'

1933 Brian Westhouse is rescued by 'Manny Chavez

1934 Westhouse & Chavez in Tibet;

2184 Kian Alvane is born

2191 April (Saga?!) is born (14/04)

2195 Saga makes her shift to Stark, being adopted by the Ryans. Brian Westhouse arrives in Marcuria. Warren Hughes is born.

2199 Zoe is born. April is 7 years old.

2208 Cortez takes up residence outside the Border House

2209 The Longest Journey begins. Zoe turned 10 years old, April is 18.

         28/07 Makes her Shift "dreaming". Meets White of the Draic Kin (Mother) and Cortez.

         31/07 April meets Crow.

         06/08 April meets Lady Alvane. Cortez is gone. White Dragon Reborn.

         08/08 "The Collapse" (caused by Saga's second shift? see two days earlier)

2211/2212 Faith is born

2218 Faith dies physically at the age of 6/7

2219 Dreamfall begins. Zoe is 20 years old. April is 28.

         21/01 Zoe is in Casablanca and is detained for several hours at the police station.

         23/01 Zoe arrives in Marcuria at night. April will be interrogate her.

         25/01 Zoe goes back to Marcuria and gets arrested. Kian meets Zoe and April. April rescues Zoe.

         27/01 April is stabbed, dies and Kian is arrested. The White Dragon teleports Zoe to the swamp city.

         28/01 Zoe is back in Casablanca and helps Faith pass on. Helena Chang overdoses her on morpheus.

         04/02 Zoe tells her story. (Dreamfall lasts a week)

???  April's funeral

         Dreamfall Chapters begins. "Saga is born" / April is reborn.

2220 01/04 Zoe "wakes up"

         04/04 Zoe's first entry in new journal. Still at the hospital.

         14/04 Zoe cut contact with her dad. Also April Ryans 29th birthday. Connection?

         24/07 Events of Book I begins.

         28/09 Zoe use a Dream machine and arrives in Arcadia. Meets Crow.

 

Do we have any more dates after this journal date? Of course whatever Zoe is experiencing in Stark is only a dream, so let's find out what happens in Book 5.

 

HoAW is an independent timeline. Saga could go to ANY year in Stark. Brian is missing from Stark for 261 years. He steps out from Storytime to Arcadia in the year of 2195 or Twin World's time. Saga gets to Stark at the same time when Brian steps into Arcadia..

 

Warren is also the artist of the painting Cortez discusses with April at the Roma Gallery, although Cortez tells her he has not painted in years. One of Warren's handles is "Firelizard", which is yet another reference to dragons.

 

Some of these things Eldin Adrianis pointed out for me regarding Saga and Brian.

 

"My point about art and truth is this, April. Some things look real, but are not. And other things may appear to be of no consequence at all, but are, in fact, invaluable. Like Warren's painting here. And your dreams."
- Cortez
 

 

 

April reaches the House of All Worlds when she is being pursued by Vanguard agents, via the "Mystery Door" outside the Fringe Cafe that opens some kind of portal. April says that it "felt different, not like Shifting." Lady Alvane tells her that, while April brought herself there, Lady Alvane opened the door for her.

 

I also still think Zoe and Faith is connected with April/Saga. Also, you think Etta might be April? She becomes lost and can't find her way back again... Saga goes on and looking for her, and their paths will intervene.

 

Connections?!

[the red of the kin]

Then what about The Longest Journey Home?

"TLJH will tell the story of what happened to April Ryan between TLJ and Dreamfall, as well as her fate after that."

 

Yes: I look forward to playing that game! What about it? While I wasn't very keen on April dying I'm fine with whatever Ragnar produces because...well he's the best

 

I also still think Zoe and Faith is connected with April/Saga. Also, you think Etta might be April? She becomes lost and can't find her way back again... Saga goes on and looking for her, and their paths will intervene.

 

I too believe they're connected.

[TowCat]

2195 Saga makes her shift to Stark, being adopted by the Ryans. Brian Westhouse arrives in Marcuria. Warren Hughes is born.

 

Where did you get this information? In DF we couldn't see, where Saga goes.

[the red of the kin]

I took for granted this is speculation...right?

[TowCat]

As i recently looked up the conversation between April and her father where she forgave him about the "dropping-accident as a baby" (in the Guardians Realm), i thout for myself, that maybe (realy maybe) Saga "walked" through her first "Picture-Shifting" direct in April as a baby. This could explain the words from Aprils father as he said "you where suddenly there". I always thought this was an odd phrase. But now, when i think about it after the revelations in DFB, this could also explain the hole "kin-daughter-mother-rebourn-cycle" wirrwarr.

 

Bevor the DFB i was not so confused about April. For me it was clear, that at some point she would die and be reborn as kin. In the dark people library (DF-TLJ) the white kin was very vague with her explanations. I think, she knew about Aprils death in the near future. But she couldn't tell that to an already half-depressed and slightly angry April. And after the talk with Gordon she decided to not get more involved with Zöes current problem. But we all know, how well that went for her, because the one thing that never dies in April is her curiosity. In the end Zöe whitnessed April's death and became her savior. She will tell April's Story in the Realm of Dreams.

 

But know we have a Saga with an white-kin-appendix, who could be the reborn April as white kin or the white kin in the library (who could easily be the already reborn April) or the mother of all white kin (probably they are all the same) and a bithday-gift called "walk through a portal, when you see one". This gives me the worst Janeway-Timetravel-Headache ever.

 

The good thing is, that the three important Realms are timeless, so we don't have to think about the "when".

[jannar85]

I took for granted this is speculation...right?

Yes, it is. April was adopted. Saga can probably go to ANY time, since HoaW is "this place is Between, and Everywhere.". If Lady Alvane could open up a portal to save April in the first game, it means they can enter at any time, any place. So everytime Etta and Saga goes "walking", they end up reincarnated and live a full life as another person, before returning to HoaW.

 

In TLJ, Lady Alvane is with Crow. Zoe is with Crow, Kian is with Crow and April is with Crow.

 

"The bird bridges worlds and souls. The bird has a bond with the Dragon of Spring. The bird was connected to the Dreamer and the Bloodless King. At the end of its life, the bird will be bonded to The Girl Who Walked Across Worlds."

 

Notice the first part.. And HAS a bond with the Dragon of Spring, and at the end of its life, he will finally meet Saga's true identity.. Lady Alvane. This way I look at this, it's Saga that has lived different lives at different times. Sometimes at the same time.

 

Here's the full dialogue:

 

 

Abnaxus: Touching you through dreams will be lika a blind man searching for a red pebble in a wild river. And if finding you is difficult, to talk even more so. Only fragments of words will survive the journey across. Some things will also not be known to me and could not be spoken. We do not know where Lux's heart was. You will need to find it on your own. Only a Dreamer could take this and bring--cough--
Zoe: Are you sick?
Abnaxus: I was fading. I will have stayed behind too long, after my people leave one realm for another. This time is poison, it diminishes me. My loop ends soon. Too late for Abnaxus to journey onwards. But not too late for Lux. Not too late for the dream. I will have stayed behind for Lux. For you to have found your way to Lux. Compared with this momentous thing, my life was a little significance.
Zoe: Couldn't you reach someone else, and have them return the soul stone?
Abnaxus: Only a Dreamer can face the sisters. Only a Dreamer will make them listen. Only a Dreamer was able to retrieve Lux's heart.
Zoe: The soul stone.
Abnaxus: Only two could touch it. There is no other Dreamer now. Only Zoe, only Lux.
Zoe: Why not send an actual message instead of vague visions?
Abnaxus: You were worlds away. Any message would be broken. Unreliable. The Oular will help me dream. The bird was needed to have found you in those dreams.
Zoe: How was Crow able to find me?
Abnaxus: The bird bridges worlds and souls. The bird has a bond with the Dragon of Spring. The bird was connected to the Dreamer and the Bloodless King. At the end of its life, the bird will be bonded to The Girl Who Walked Across Worlds.
Zoe: That's... really not an answer. That's an anti-answer. That's worse than nothing, I mean--
Abnaxus: The bird is magic.
Crow: Which bird? I wasn't listening. There's a magic bird? Where?
Abnaxus: You were a curious thing, feathered one. So little and yet so great. So full of magic.
Crow: Pffft, right, sure, I mean-- Really? Magic?
Abnaxus: Oh yes. You would see this.
Zoe: What's the Dragon of Spring?
Abnaxus: The new thing that comes to pass when the old things die. The soul of she who saved the Balance, reborn.
Zoe: She who saved--
Crow: April? Are you talking about April Ryan?
Zoe: What do you mean by reborn?
Crow: April isn't dead?
Abnaxus: She will be dead. She was reborn. There are two now, entwined but apart. The Dragon of Spring. The Girl Who Walked Between Worlds. Mortal and immortal. Human and Kin. They are legend.
Zoe: So they're one but two? There are two Aprils now, but she's also dead? I still don't get it.
Abnaxus: Neither would I, I will only know the words, not their meaning. This is the way of my sight. I will see, but never all of it. Scattered words from a book with many, many pages.
Crow: That's helpful.

 

The Dragon of Spring.. April Ryan..

"The new thing that comes to pass when the old things die. The soul of she who saved the Balance, reborn."

 

She will always matter, and keeps doing so.

 

"She will be dead. She was reborn. There are two now, entwined but apart. The Dragon of Spring. The Girl Who Walked Between Worlds. Mortal and immortal. Human and Kin. They are legend."

 

Saga. April was dead, but she was reborn, as Saga always do when she go on "walking". April Ryan got lost in Arcadia after TLJ. She lost all hope, which The White Dragon Reborn, confirms:

 

"She also clarifies that April is not a dragon as she is, that their sisterhood is more metaphorical than genetic. The White of the Kin seems sad at April's choices in life, but agrees to help her Shift to the Guardian's Realm - on the condition she takes Crow, whom the White Dragon seems amused by, along with her."

 

Also Lady Alvane said this to Crow in TLJ:

(in the beginning, to the travellers)

Lady Alvane: All my stories are true, child. There are enough fairy tales in the worlds already. There's no need for me to make up more, believe me.

(...)

(the end)

Lady Alvane: And so the story goes... How strange it was to tell it again, to remember...April Ryan. That was such a long, long time ago. And now...now my story is almost over as well.

(...)

Crow: I guess...yeah. Of course. Unless...you're not planning on going out there again, are you? On a new adventure? Cause I dunno, I'm kinda happy staying here.

Lady Alvane: Don't worry, Crow. I think our adventuring days are over. But that doesn't mean we can't tell stories, does it?

Crow: No, definitely not. Tell me one. Tell me about the one about the young, beautiful warrior princess who single-handedly won the War of the Balance!

Lady Alvane: Hmmm... I don't remember it quite like that, Crow, but let's see... This story begins a long, long time ago, when Stark and Arcadia were still to be reunited, and the Guardian was still on his throne...

This only confirms my theories.

[Ikon]

Yes, it is. April was adopted. Saga can probably go to ANY time, since HoaW is "this place is Between, and Everywhere.". If Lady Alvane could open up a portal to save April in the first game, it means they can enter at any time, any place. So everytime Etta and Saga goes "walking", they end up reincarnated and live a full life as another person, before returning to HoaW.

 

In TLJ, Lady Alvane is with Crow. Zoe is with Crow, Kian is with Crow and April is with Crow.

 

"The bird bridges worlds and souls. The bird has a bond with the Dragon of Spring. The bird was connected to the Dreamer and the Bloodless King. At the end of its life, the bird will be bonded to The Girl Who Walked Across Worlds."

 

Notice the first part.. And HAS a bond with the Dragon of Spring, and at the end of its life, he will finally meet Saga's true identity.. Lady Alvane. This way I look at this, it's Saga that has lived different lives at different times. Sometimes at the same time.

 

Here's the full dialogue:

 

 

The Dragon of Spring.. April Ryan..

"The new thing that comes to pass when the old things die. The soul of she who saved the Balance, reborn."

 

She will always matter, and keeps doing so.

 

"She will be dead. She was reborn. There are two now, entwined but apart. The Dragon of Spring. The Girl Who Walked Between Worlds. Mortal and immortal. Human and Kin. They are legend."

 

Saga. April was dead, but she was reborn, as Saga always do when she go on "walking".

 

Also Lady Alvane said this to Crow in TLJ:

 

Thank you for doing all this research; saves me from doing it!