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#61 khh

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 11:09

This is a conversation I had with multiple persons. At first I thought sexual orientation was strongly related to one's life-style and social background. Recently some science essays and Red Thread Games changed my mind. Have you perhaps read the whole "My Kian is gay, ok!" thread on Steam?
Well at a certain point RTG intervened with a very strong message, saying how Kian was born gay. They said you dn't decide to become gay, you're born with it. It's in your DNA.

Who am I do go against it? I'm definitely no scientist. So I accepted it. At lease fot the TLJ saga, right?

So, again, it's a body thing in that any TLJ character is born with this orientation in his/her DNA.

From what I understand of the science that's been done on this, they've found out that people are almost certainly born with their sexual orientation. But they haven't been able to figure out if it's determined by the environment in the womb, your DNA or if it's essentially random. Likely it's a very complex interaction between all of these things. Just in case you're interested.

 

It makes sense to agree that your sexual orientation is just part of your body in the TLJ universe, though. I think that's a good interpretation.


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#62 the red of the kin

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 12:06

Yep! It's a fascinating subject!

From wikipedia:

 

"The exact causes for the development of a particular sexual orientation have yet to be established. To date, a lot of research has been conducted to determine the influence of genetics, hormonal action, development dynamics, social and cultural influences—which has led many to think that biology and environment factors play a complex role in forming it. It was once thought that homosexuality was the result of faulty psychological development, resulting from childhood experiences and troubled relationships, including childhood sexual abuse. It has been found that this was based on prejudice and misinformation."

 

https://en.wikipedia...entation#Causes


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#63 Hellegennes

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 13:41

All research points to the fact that if sexuality is influenced by the environment, that's happening within the first 5 years of a person's life. However it's not purely a DNA product, that's for sure. All twin studies that have been done show that identical twins not always share the same sexual orientation, which they would if it was only a DNA thing, since they are essentialy clones of one another.

 

I have a lot of other comments but I am at work right now so I will come back to it later.


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#64 Dmm

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 13:56

From what I understand of the science that's been done on this, they've found out that people are almost certainly born with their sexual orientation. But they haven't been able to figure out if it's determined by the environment in the womb, your DNA or if it's essentially random. Likely it's a very complex interaction between all of these things. Just in case you're interested.

 

It makes sense to agree that your sexual orientation is just part of your body in the TLJ universe, though. I think that's a good interpretation.

 

I ready a study done a just a few years ago, I believe it was done in Sweden, that involved several thousand identical and fraternal twins, most of whom were male. The study was trying to determine how much was genetics and how much unique environmental circumstances that contribute to homosexuality. The finding showed on average that genetics contribute 30% and unique environmental circumstances contribute 70% towards whether ones sexual orientation would be homosexual or heterosexual for males and genetics was even a less factor for females,but since so few females were involved in the study they considered that finding largely tentative. So, with identical twins you both would have the same genetic disposition to homosexual, but it was what you experienced that would activate those genes or not. That is why one identical twin will be homosexual(had an unique experiences that the other did not which activated the genes) and the other will be heterosexual(because they did not have those type of experiences that would activate the genes). Does that mean one chooses those experiences that activate the genes? No. As Hellegennes points out it happens early in life.


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#65 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 14:34

There have also been some initial studies looking into the phenomenon of people who have fluid sexualities or sexualities that shift and change at various points in their lives. Which is a thing that happens.

Human sexuality is a lot more complex than we even understand at this point. In my opinion anyway.


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#66 Nathanael

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 14:38

Ok, I've lost. April is now lesbian :P



#67 Corrado5834

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 14:41

Ok, I've lost. April is now lesbian :P

 

Nope, too easy a solution.

If she can be reborn, or being Saga walking out of HoAW, or whatever's going on, she can experience all the variants at will!

:P :P



#68 Hellegennes

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 14:55

I ready a study done a just a few years ago, I believe it was done in Sweden, that involved several thousand identical and fraternal twins, most of whom were male. The study was trying to determine how much was genetics and how much unique environmental circumstances that contribute to homosexuality. The finding showed on average that genetics contribute 30% and unique environmental circumstances contribute 70% towards whether ones sexual orientation would be homosexual or heterosexual for males and genetics was even a less factor for females,but since so few females were involved in the study they considered that finding largely tentative. So, with identical twins you both would have the same genetic disposition to homosexual, but it was what you experienced that would activate those genes or not. That is why one identical twin will be homosexual(had an unique experiences that the other did not which activated the genes) and the other will be heterosexual(because they did not have those type of experiences that would activate the genes). Does that mean one chooses those experiences that activate the genes? No. As Hellegennes points out it happens early in life.

 

However it's nigh impossible to determine what environmental factors affect sexuality. They could even include experiences in the womb, chemical differentiation, etc. Since cloning happens at the very start of the process and 9 months pass between it and birth, a lot of things could play a part. For example, the fingerprints of identical twins are not identical at all.


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#69 Dmm

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 15:30

However it's nigh impossible to determine what environmental factors affect sexuality. They could even include experiences in the womb, chemical differentiation, etc. Since cloning happens at the very start of the process and 9 months pass between it and birth, a lot of things could play a part. For example, the fingerprints of identical twins are not identical at all.

 

Yes, they never specify what those experiences were or when they happened, but what I was reading was only an article about the study not the study itself. The thing that interests me, is, do we all carry those genes that can affect our sexual orientation to be other than heterosexual or are they present only in a certain percentage of the population?


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#70 Hellegennes

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 15:41

To my understanding it's not a single gene, it's more probably a set of genes which regulate chemical processes in the brain which govern sexuality and that sexuality is not split into distinct categories but rather into a spectrum. This is more of an empirical observation along with some guessing based on what we know about chemical processes in the brain. There are also evolutionary reasons for the existence of a sexuality spectrum and some view it as a byproduct of other evolutionary traits.


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#71 Hellegennes

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 17:36

 

This is a conversation I had with multiple persons. At first I thought sexual orientation was strongly related to one's life-style and social background. Recently some science essays and Red Thread Games changed my mind. Have you perhaps read the whole "My Kian is gay, ok!" thread on Steam?
Well at a certain point RTG intervened with a very strong message, saying how Kian was born gay. They said you dn't decide to become gay, you're born with it. It's in your DNA.

Who am I do go against it? I'm definitely no scientist. So I accepted it. At lease fot the TLJ saga, right?

So, again, it's a body thing in that any TLJ character is born with this orientation in his/her DNA.

 
How can you be sure of that? Saga draw April's adventure but she might have created April by drawing her story and not actually have memories of April.

 

Sexuality definitely permeates the whole way of thinking and acting...tell you more: society plays a big role in trying to shape how people act towards people they're sexually attracted to.
But where does the instinct of who you're attracted towards (boys, girls...goats..) come from? Is that at mind level or is it originated by your body/organism?
Most religious people will say this is totally spiritual (anche Christians will probably say gay is bad, hmmm-kaay). But is it?

 

 

 

If you don't believe in spiritual things, gods and the rest of it, everything is a body thing. So the question if sexuality is a body or a mind thing doesn't have any meaning in this context. What I was referring to, on the other hand, when I spoke about sexuality permeating the way of thinking and acting was the fact that sexuality is a character trait, not just a bodily function. And it's not just societal attitudes that play a part in this, it's sexuality itself which plays a role in how you think, i.e. sexuality determines at least part of your way of thinking, apart from other people's attitudes towards you. It is perhaps instrumental in shaping a person's personality.

 

So, if you have a universe where spiritual things exist and character traits are not just chemical reactions in the brain, then sexuality would be transferable (in a reincarnation) as much as personality.

 

Regarding April and Saga, your explanation is a cool theory. However we do know that April was reborn and the way the story is presented it seems like Saga was born at the same time April was reborn. Maybe we were falsely led to believe this and it's just a storytelling trick, but right now the evidence points toward Saga being a continuation of April rather than Saga given birth to April's story.


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#72 Ikon

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 18:07

From the reading I've done on this subject, particularly an Italian study, it appears hormones play a major role. I wish I could remember where I found the study; I would post a link, but it indicated that women with higher estrogen and progesterone levels tend to have male offspring who more often than normal are homosexual. The explanation was that the higher 'female' hormone levels cause some of the hormones to cross the placenta into the embryo and influence brain development, causing the brain to take on more female characteristics than a typical male brain. So, rather than DNA directly, it's how the hormones affect the DNA that controls brain development.

 

A couple of things tied in with this. One is that I believe studies have shown that the brains of men and women do respond differently to stimuli. The second is that the brains of homosexual men behave more like the brains of women than typical male brains.

 

All that said, I believe agirlnamedbob is right: human sexuality is very, very complex, and I think there is a whole panoply of sexual orientations and preferences.


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#73 the red of the kin

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 18:35

There have also been done initial studies looking into the phenomenon of people who have fluid sexualities or sexualities that shift and change at various points in their lives. Which is a thing that happens.

Human sexuality is a lot more complex than we even understand at this point. In my opinion anyway.

 

Oh I so agree with you! :)


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#74 magic88889

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 20:26

Human sexuality is a lot more complex than we even understand at this point. In my opinion anyway.

 

There this great tumblr post about sexual orientation and gender identity.  I rememeber seeing it a while ago and thinking that this is all lots more complicated that I thought.

 

http://drummerjag.tu...formation-about


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#75 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 20:40

There this great tumblr post about sexual orientation and gender identity.  I rememeber seeing it a while ago and thinking that this is all lots more complicated that I thought.

 

http://drummerjag.tu...formation-about

 

Yeah. And that doesn't even start to touch on the distinction between sexual orientation and romantic orientation that some people draw. But yeah, that's a good one. :) I've seen a ton of Tumblr posts on the subject, but I think this is the first time I've seen that specific one. Thanks for the share!

 

 

Oh, and just to interject one little detail about the whole genetics thing since I've been learning a bit about this recently and found it interesting...

 

We've started learning more about epigenetics. Or how genes can get switched on and off or express themselves slightly differently based on external factors. So yeah, it's definitely possible that even if it is primarily genetic, external factors can still be a significant determining factor. And we're learning that the things that can trigger that stuff is way more complicated than we initially thought.

 

 

As far as the whole April-Saga-Hanna thing... I have issues with that theory for totally other reasons. But if it does turn out to be true, I wouldn't necessarily find it particularly hard to believe that there's been a shift in sexuality. April was presented largely as heterosexual and Hanna has been presented as being romantically involved with a girl, but sexuality is more complicated than that so... ...Eh?

 

Ultimately, I'm not sure it particularly matters what factors influence sexuality, but there are certainly benefits to better understanding the complexities of all of this. 


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#76 Nathanael

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 22:03

Isn't it bit off topic? I've started it and now I regret it ;p



#77 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 22:10

xD Sorry. 

 

We uh... ...Do that. 

 

I mean...To a point any discussion will meander a bit. Usually we start off topic, wander way off topic for a page or two, and then meander back to the original topic... 


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#78 robertc

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 13:17

When we have these reincarnation vs sexuality discussions around TLJ/Dreamfall (seems like there's a lot of them) everyone appears to assume April would be reincarnated as a woman.  Is there some part in TLJ (not played much of that) which indicates that gender survives re-incarnation?


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#79 WorldsReunited

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 13:38

When we have these reincarnation vs sexuality discussions around TLJ/Dreamfall (seems like there's a lot of them) everyone appears to assume April would be reincarnated as a woman.  Is there some part in TLJ (not played much of that) which indicates that gender survives re-incarnation?

 

We don't have any indications like that. Some people think Queenie might be the new Cortez for example. It's just that Saga is a girl and she has obviously quite a few ties with April to the point of her father looking like April's dad in TLJ and the painting/drawings.

 

 

There this great tumblr post about sexual orientation and gender identity.  I rememeber seeing it a while ago and thinking that this is all lots more complicated that I thought.

 

http://drummerjag.tu...formation-about

 

This is a great post. ;)



#80 Hellegennes

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 13:42

Well, Queenie could be Cortez but my guess is that he is in disguise. He clearly says to not confuse him for an old lady. Do dragons have genders like humans do, anyway?


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