144 replies to this topic

[Hellegennes]

I find it hard to accept Etta as April or a part of April. I am still locked into the Birth-Life-Death or Winter-Spring-Summer cycles we discussed about a year ago. Saga's  "going walking" would indicate a change is coming - everything will be different after her passing (just as it was with April). Beyond that, I am still unclear about the relationship between Etta and the White of the Kin.

 

April, as April, was half Kin. For April's rebirth as Saga, that apparently is not the case. Also, Etta seems to be involved with creating stories.

 

Maybe Etta is Reza.

[Hellegennes]

IIRC, Midgard is the world that humans inhabit in Norse mythology, which would seem to point to our world - although Etta does not look exactly human.

 

She looks sufficiently human to me. I mean, yes, she has a strange skin colour but maybe she likes to dye her skin. She is still a mammal with two breasts, same limbs, same anatomy and she is biologically compatible with Magnus, with whom she has a child. Of course we are talking about a game so forget all about this.

 

 

See? This is why I didn't like Saga being a reincarnation of April. It's so goddamned complicated. 

 

... in an otherwise uncomplicated saga... sorry, I meant series?

[magic88889]

She looks sufficiently human to me. I mean, yes, she has a strange skin colour but maybe she likes to dye her skin. She is still a mammal with two breasts, same limbs, same anatomy and she is biologically compatible with Magnus, with whom she has a child. Of course we are talking about a game so forget all about this.

It's not just green skin though. She has those twinkling spots all over as well. Or am I the only only one who noticed that she has stars in her skin?

[Hellegennes]

Maybe she likes weird glitter?

[Sarah_Stark]

I imagine that each of the worlds that may exist within the multiverse would have disparities in their denizens, but the basic blueprint of the leading species would more or less remain the same, given there's only a finite number of creatures one can imagine that have some logic to their existence (and with the dreamer, more or less only one ''creator'').

I imagine there are possibly some worlds out there where there's an Earth-alike with the humanoid race having four arms and horns, but could probably still mate with the species of same standing on our Earth (if it too, is one of the multiverses). There's also the fact that being a dream, technically any two creatures of opposing genders could mate and have a child, as the only law preventing it in the real world is genetic (and of course, actual human laws and such). I doubt genetics really matter all that much when magic is a reality. I say that because within so much mythology there're so many chimaeric creatures, strange man-beasts and so on within virtually every mythological pantheon, and plenty of offspring that aren't like something from a nightmare.

Of all the bizarre things I've read about, I can quite easily imagine one humanoid from one multiverse having a child with one from another, and it not mattering that it looks like her skin is alight with the solar system.

[Ikon]

given there's only a finite number of creatures one can imagine that have some logic to their existence (and with the dreamer, more or less only one ''creator'').

 

Really? I don't see that. If there is a limit, I suspect it's a number with a great many zeros in it. It may be technically finite but practically infinite.

[Corrado5834]

What about Saga's scar; the one everybody was talking about some times ago, Hanna related ...

Is it still there in 14-years-old Saga?

[loranna238]

I think it is stated quite clearly, but its still just a theory:

 

Spoiler

 

Abnaxus states something like April is the Spring Dragon which is reborn every lifetime, like the White Dragon (which is her mother...).

 

Saga is April. She, And Etta were often leaving the House of All Worlds. Each time they leave the house for "Walking" they spend a lifetime in the worlds of stark and arcadia(lets call them the physical worlds). Each time reborn as the new Spring Dragon(April)  and White Kin but as another person in the physical worlds.

 

It is also stated that April is half dragon half human - which makes so much sense as her parents are Etta(White Dragon) and Magnus(which appear human). I'm not talking about April's "real" parents in the physical world in this specific lifetime as April, but her "Spiritual" parents, the parents of the soul that is being reborn each time as another person in the physical world...

 

Something happened to the last white kin, we don't know what exactly, but maybe that's why Etta didn't return.

Also, April doesn't know all of this because Saga is really young when she goes "walking" as April. Saga barely remembers the whole thing (you get that from looking at the painting of Crow on the wall). Saga probably didn't know a lot of this when she was April and didn't know the mechanic of being reborn when "walking" and was not aware of what she is at that time. Unlike the White dragon that knows she is reborn, that knows she is April's mother, etc...

 

tl;dr: Saga is April's spirit which reborn as a physical person each time she leaves the House of All Worlds, for a lifetime, then her spirit is returning to the house, and soon after reborns as someone else when she leaves again. Same goes for Etta, Saga's mom, which is the White dragon's spirit.

 

 

This thing was much more complicated to describe in words then I thought it would. LOL. I used the words "spiritual", "physical", "spirit" and "soul" just to make the point... Probably they are all physical.

 

What do you guys think about all of this? Am I missing something? Have I mistaken some facts along the way by mistake?

 

I wonder if the reason Etta didn't come back the last time is because Brian (who has the shadow of the undreaming) killed her...and because he's the undreaming, she can't come back.

 

Edit:  And that's kind of what you said - I got the gist without reading it. 

 

Also, Hannah appears to be an artist.  I put a post below this that says that Hannah might be a shifter, and not a dreamer, but she's also an artist (like April).  Zoey's artistic interpretations of the things she dreams would probably look like stick figures, I think she has said somewhere in there she can't draw.  And Abnaxus also said that Zoey was the only other dreamer, which wouldn't make sense if Hannah was one.  So Hannah's a shifter and not a dreamer, and a reincarnation of spring that happens when she leaves home.  Also, can't Crow traverse somehow...which would also suggest he's rebound to whomever is currently the dragon of spring, until the last part.  (This also fits with the mythology of the crow if you look it up)

 

This is really really cool if it is right.  Kewl job.

[loranna238]

To everyone above after half-reading what they said:

 

Ok, here's a thought.  

 

Maybe they all have the scar.  Every time we saw April, she had her bangs covering her right-hand side.  Implying she might have a scar, but not necessarily.  We know Hannah does have a scar, certainly.  Hannah also appears to be an artist.

 

 

Oh, oh oh.  Also - Saga believes the first time she walked was when she was 7, but it was actually before that - she was about 4 or 5 I think.  There's an implication that she did it the first time we saw her.  Magnus doesn't want her to leave because Etta didn't come back the last time she left, to do something very important, which no one said what it was.  (He is kind of being selfish but it's understandable)

 

It does make sense if when an incarnation of Spring dies it goes back to the House of All Worlds.  Hannah would therefore be the 2nd time that Saga walked. If Hannah is not a dreamer for real (Abnaxus said Zoe was the only one) then she would have memories of Mercuria kind of like she was *shifting* and not dreaming.  Now, if Etta was actually the white lady, then when Brian killed her, because he's one with the undreaming (if not replaced) that's when she didn't return back to Magnus and Saga.

 

"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff."

[Ikon]

I figure Etta must be a mobile plant. She is green after all....

[loranna238]

I figure Etta must be a mobile plant. She is green after all....

Yeah but do plans have a celestial overlay...Etta's skin has that.

[Indrid Cold]

Saga believes the first time she walked was when she was 7, but it was actually before that - she was about 4 or 5 I think. There's an implication that she did it the first time we saw her.

I don't understand what you mean. The first time we saw her she was barely 1, not 4 or 5, and I don't remember any shifting happening there.

[Riaise]

I figure Etta must be a mobile plant. She is green after all....

 

Maybe she grew from the plastic leaf that April planted in Abnaxus' garden...

 

I don't understand what you mean. The first time we saw her she was barely 1, not 4 or 5, and I don't remember any shifting happening there.

 

I think loranna238 is talking about Interlude Two, when Saga was 7 years old. She looks like she might only be 4 or 5, but the things she says about reading and having homework implies that she's actually slightly older than that.

[Hellegennes]

This still is confusing. This was not the "first time we saw her".

[Nathanael]

I don't see any scars on Aprils face... Look here:

 

April and Saga have some character traits in common. But Hannah seems different. And another problem with theory that April=Saga=Hannah is... sexual orientation. April is clearly heterosexual and Hannah is homosexual. If they are the same person (or at least have the same soul) how this thing could change so dramatically?

[the red of the kin]

 

 

April and Saga have some character traits in common. But Hannah seems different. And another problem with theory that April=Saga=Hannah is... sexual orientation. April is clearly heterosexual and Hannah is homosexual. If they are the same person (or at least have the same soul) how this thing could change so dramatically?

 

I'm not a fan of the April=Hannah=Saga=whatchamacallit, but if they are the same person, I'd say it's more on the "substance" level than the "form"...or on the "spirit" level, rather than the "body" level.
 

Sexual orientation derives from a person's body.

[Hellegennes]

I'm not a fan of the April=Hannah=Saga=whatchamacallit, but if they are the same person, I'd say it's more on the "substance" level than the "form"...or on the "spirit" level, rather than the "body" level.
 

Sexual orientation derives from a person's body.

 

Well, sexual orientation derives from the person's mind functions. The body gives only the sex. Yes, the mind is part of the body, but that's only if you don't accept anything spiritual like a soul, etc. I mean, if Saga is April, she clearly has memories of her life as April, so her mind or at least part of it is non-transient. You can argue of course that sexuality resides in a lower procedural level of the mind, but modern psychology may bite you in the hand for reducing it to a skin-deep level. Sexuality permeates the whole way of thinking and acting, not just the raw sexual needs.

[magritte]

Why do we assume April is exclusively heterosexual?  Maybe it's just because it's so long since I've played TLJ and Dreamfall, but I don't recall her ever being in a relationship with anybody.  Maybe she's asexual.  And Hannah could be bisexual for all we know.  We don't really know much about her.

 

Also, the brain is part of the body, and a new incarnation has a new brain, if not a new soul.  While there seems to be a clear connection between April and Saga, at least, it's not clear that they genuinely share the same mind, some memories, the ability to draw and to shift, but I don't view her as being exactly the same person in a new body.

[loranna238]

Maybe she likes weird glitter?

 

I seriously doubt with these games if that is it.

[the red of the kin]

Well, sexual orientation derives from the person's mind functions. The body gives only the sex. Yes, the mind is part of the body, but that's only if you don't accept anything spiritual like a soul, etc.

 

The balance has shifted!

This is a conversation I had with multiple persons. At first I thought sexual orientation was strongly related to one's life-style and social background. Recently some science essays and Red Thread Games changed my mind. Have you perhaps read the whole "My Kian is gay, ok!" thread on Steam?
Well at a certain point RTG intervened with a very strong message, saying how Kian was born gay. They said you dn't decide to become gay, you're born with it. It's in your DNA.

Who am I do go against it? I'm definitely no scientist. So I accepted it. At lease fot the TLJ saga, right?

So, again, it's a body thing in that any TLJ character is born with this orientation in his/her DNA.

 

 I mean, if Saga is April, she clearly has memories of her life as April, so her mind or at least part of it is non-transient. 

 

How can you be sure of that? Saga draw April's adventure but she might have created April by drawing her story and not actually have memories of April.

 

You can argue of course that sexuality resides in a lower procedural level of the mind, but modern psychology may bite you in the hand for reducing it to a skin-deep level. Sexuality permeates the whole way of thinking and acting, not just the raw sexual needs.

 

 

Sexuality definitely permeates the whole way of thinking and acting...tell you more: society plays a big role in trying to shape how people act towards people they're sexually attracted to.
But where does the instinct of who you're attracted towards (boys, girls...goats..) come from? Is that at mind level or is it originated by your body/organism?
Most religious people will say this is totally spiritual (anche Christians will probably say gay is bad, hmmm-kaay). But is it?

 

We could say we're phisically predetermined to be straight or gay and that as our mind develops through puberty we can change idea. Once you're a fully formed aduld you generally stay the way you are.

This is how I truly see it now.

 

How does reincarnation fit into this? I don't believe in reincarnation and I think it's sort of childish but ok, let's roll with it.

I think it would make sense one's memory would be wiped. But we've seen how the white Dragon reborn knew who it/he/she was. 

Yet she didn't start as a baby but as a fully grown woman (she even felt strange in that body). So was that reincarnation the way April wold have become Saga? Nah probably not.

 

 

I have close the conversation here since I gotta go to work

see ya!