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#41 Future Markus

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 07:50

Oh, and since we know that HoaW is "unmoored from time", and since we now know that the Brightness created time as we know it, it seems reasonable to assume that the HoaW is actually fully outside Lux's dream.

And so perhaps the forces of Timelessness include the HoaW just as much as the Storytime. :D
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#42 Pawlo_86

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 08:35

Fascinating. So Lux and Nox (or Nyx, but Lux is Latin, not Greek) are counterparts from "before"/"outside" the observed TLJ universe.

Lux, as we've been told, dreamt the TLJU into being. Nox -- who is/gave rise to/embodies the undreaming -- therefore threatens not only the trivial entertainment dreams of Stark residents, but the *very fabric of the universe*.

What's curious is this: Nox presumably is ultimately behind the Dreamachine. But this device... Creates dreams? And harnesses them. Well, based on what Ragnar posted, it sounds like Lux and Nox both come from a universe where dreams are like magic, so perhaps the undreaming is just like nightmares -- dreams, but with negative qualia.

So it sounds like Nox's goal is to use dreams from within "The Brightness"/"The Great Dream" to somehow collapse it (=> TLJU gone, everyone presumably dies) and return Lux's/Nox's reality to a more neutral state.

 

The cycle is titled DREAM-FALL so it is a story about the fall of Lux's dream. Since Chapter 4 we know that whole universe is a dream dreamed by Lux aka The First Dreamer. From tease arts we know that there is opposite to Lux - named Nox by the fans. I'm going to name it as Undreamer. Lux seems to be light creature while Undreamer seems tro be dark and evil. Azadi religion seems to be releated to Dreamer thing:

 

Light

Shadow

Light Of The Goddess

The First Mountain

 

So Lux could be Azadi Goddess. But there is something wrong. Dark (and false) Prophet who works for Undreamer fooled Azadi and now they're working for Shadow against Light.

 

DREAM-FALL

UN-DREAMING



#43 Kianismybae

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 12:46

The cycle is titled DREAM-FALL so it is a story about the fall of Lux's dream. Since Chapter 4 we know that whole universe is a dream dreamed by Lux aka The First Dreamer. From tease arts we know that there is opposite to Lux - named Nox by the fans. I'm going to name it as Undreamer. Lux seems to be light creature while Undreamer seems tro be dark and evil. Azadi religion seems to be releated to Dreamer thing:

 

Light

Shadow

Light Of The Goddess

The First Mountain

 

So Lux could be Azadi Goddess. But there is something wrong. Dark (and false) Prophet who works for Undreamer fooled Azadi and now they're working for Shadow against Light.

 

DREAM-FALL

UN-DREAMING

Well, tha fall of Lux could be the reunion of the worlds. If Lux dead all will go with he or she.  Clearly Balance and  Azadi religion is the same story  told in different ways. But what about Lux and Nox are the two faces of a coin I mean, like ying yang, light and darkness in the same body... Well we have wait for see  who, dreamer or ¿Nightmarer? lol ... well undreamer, suceed in the eternal war. I'm sure that storytime and HoAW are out of this by in some ways more related to this than anything.  Could be Storytime the real world habitated by these dreamers?... It would be awesome :)


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#44 Pawlo_86

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 10:08

What is The First Dream? An original Earth? It was said that Yaga is a child of first dreams. Who dreamed The First Dream? Lux?

The One became Three - it sounds like a creation of Stark, Arcadia and world of dreams (Winter? Storytime?)

"terrible brightness" - The one who speak this is against current reality.

"We" - Some options. Dragons. Lux and "Undreamer". Yaga and her lost disciplies?

 

This somehow ties into Yaga's description:

 

Baba holds knowledge of the world as it was before the Divide, and she is a child of the first dreams, long before the ascendence of man. She used to be a powerful goddess, but her powers have been severely reduced. She hides now in the dark, cursing the rise of civilisation and the loss of her disciples… and plotting.

 

Is she releated to the events in Ancient City?


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#45 Kianismybae

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 10:20

What is The First Dream? An original Earth? It was said that Yaga is a child of first dreams. Who dreamed The First Dream? Lux?

The One became Three - it sounds like a creation of Stark, Arcadia and world of dreams (Winter? Storytime?)

"terrible brightness" - The one who speak this is against current reality.

"We" - Some options. Dragons. Lux and "Undreamer". Yaga and her lost disciplies?

 Terrible brightness sounds like the wave of light of the godess  that  Vamon and  Sahya was talking about. Brightness doesn't implies that  it can be good.

The One became three... I agree with you.

And Yaga... is strange because  is like she was in the begins before the  first dream and the divide of the worlds. But the  steam cards says that she is a child of the first dreams... Is so confusing.  Tell me what do you think  people :)



#46 Pawlo_86

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 10:23

And Yaga... is strange because  is like she was in the begins before the  first dream and the divide of the worlds. But the  steam cards says that she is a child of the first dreams... Is so confusing.  Tell me what do you think  people :)

 

 That's why i believe that The First Dream(s) was original Earth before Divide.


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#47 debro

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 11:16

Lux and "Nox" are most likely The Goddess (Lux, Light) and The Shadow (Nox), the one that Kian constantly curses. They're linked to Azadi religion.
And I still believe "Madame Nyx" has something to do with "Nox".
Everything is connected!

"The brightest days have the darkest shadows. Always remember that!"


#48 Thundex

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Posted 10 October 2015 - 10:47

I am not sure if this is related or not. But I was replaying book 3 and I saw that Saga had an interesting book. If you look in her bookshelf in her room you'll notice a book called "The first Dream". Not 100% sure what it means but if anyone can figure it out you smart ladies and gents can! I also did take a screenshot but too lazy to upload it :P


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#49 Abnoxious

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 01:08

Okay, RANT TIME BITCHES!
 

I was saying that in Charmed there was a characters called the Avatars who are beyond good and evil and they only search rhe eternal peace in the world and if they need destroy good or evil they do in order to keep the peace. And maybe exist a third child. 

 

I was thinking this also about the three being a person or figure of some kind. I like the idea of their being a third child of the first dream. There often is a trope in storytelling of a good-twin/bad-twin dynamic, and the concept of having a third force is intriguing. Perhaps the third child is neutral and balancing, a sort of peacekeeper, or maybe the third is as chaotic as the other two extremities of Lux and Nyx.

 

I also thought about Charmed's Avatars, as they are sort of a symbol of true neutrality, providing a third reactive force, used only when necessary to maintain a balance. Also, in the show there is a huge emphasis on the "power of three" in the combination of their powers, providing balance in their differences. In TLJC we have three playable protagonists, and there are three conceivable "realms" in which we believe to be fractured segments of a once whole world, extending this idea of needing three elements to create one whole force. It's apparent that the three playable characters need to come together in some way or have an equal impact on events to bring the right balance back to the world and create a comfortable neutrality between light and shade, magic and science, good and evil. One is born in the world of science, another in that of magic, and the third in an obscure outer world that seems to bind the two but is also of itself.

 

Three is a very important number and I'm glad the idea of the three incorporated into a game series that is so entangled with life, symbolism and lore from our world. In terms of physics and symbolism, the humble triangle is often seen as a shape of strength, proving the number three to be of great importance in our world. In architecture triangular shapes are used to reinforce structures such as on the framework of bridges or buttresses supporting the walls of a church. Expanding on that religious note there, the number three is also seen as a sacred number, especially to Freemasons for example whose symbol of the triangle represented a shape close to Deity. It is often used in storytelling to show equal diversity of character, a modern example being the story of the three brothers in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, where each element has a power that when combined creates one most powerful force. I also thought about the Aboriginal Creation Myth funnily enough (see agirlnamedbob's post) again an example of three equal elements that when brought together create one whole cocktail for life. While on concoctions, do I correctly remember in TLJ making potions using three items per spell?  

 

Lux and "Nox" are most likely The Goddess (Lux, Light) and The Shadow (Nox), the one that Kian constantly curses. They're linked to Azadi religion.
And I still believe "Madame Nyx" has something to do with "Nox".
Everything is connected!

 

YASSSSS! I like to think that Nyx is the second child and exists within Stark. With Lux being in the Purple Mountains we can assume they are within Arcadia. So that leaves the third child to be inbetween, like perhaps the Vagabond? (ALL GLOWY EYES, Y'ALL!) I feel the three characters may lead themselves into becoming these three balancing elements somehow? The way I see it is that Zoe will become Vagabond, Saga being a powerful dreamer shall be the new Lux and Kian would be Nyx. Seems a bit strange for him to become the darkness, but I feel as though he may be lured into it. The coaxing of his mother to him to join her in the deep, the dark, in the beginning of DFC made me feel upon reflection as though Nyx was tricking him, trying to lure him into the darkness, like he will be fooled into becoming Nyx and it not being of his own decision, after all happy endings aren't always what happens. Too out there? Maybe...


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#50 Abnoxious

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 01:21

Also, from a post I made in the wicker witch thread, another example of threes:

 

Ivan_Bilibin_036.jpeg

 

Baba Yaga seems to be related to the Gribbler somewhat - although the Gribbler ate the Bandu and the wicker witch has a Bandu type snout... I wonder if The Mole was/was working with Yaga? I know in folklore she has a horrendous nose, but perhaps in Arcadia this is a mole nose?

 

Found this on Wikipedia (I know, reliable):  In the Polesia region of Ukraine, the plural baby may refer to an autumn funeral feast. So the burning of the witch is surely symbolic of postponing this, though I'm thinking there may be some form of sacrifice involved? One similar character of folklore, Perchta, also has a feast day, and interestingly has a twin character duality, one dark and decrepit the other made of light. On her feast day, she knew if children and servants had been good and they'd be rewarded with coin or trinkets. Those who hadn't, or those who consumed her feast day offerings, had their bellies slit open and some stuffed with hay. Dark, but I feel some parallels may come through in DFC.

 

Interestingly, in one story on wiki, the Yagas are three sisters. Each is approached in turn and sends the protagonist Ivan to the next after he performs some ritual by blowing on three horns. The third however wants to eat him, so he begs for the three horns and in doing so a firebird accompanied by other birds surround her hut, and he escapes on its back. This really makes me think of three characters - Saga, Anna and April. 

 

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#51 loranna238

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 05:08

What about Lux and Nox  werw the same person?   Something like  Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hide.  The  One become Three line  can be the split of the worlds or  another character like  Lux and Nox  that we don't know yet.  What do you think guys?? :)

I would think...

 

One became three may refer to Stark/Arcadia and the space inbetween.  To the balance.

 

Also, we know Zoe is from Stark.  Kian is from Arcadia.  And April...is interesting to ponder.



#52 Pawlo_86

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 06:05

What if three are Lux, Undreaming and Vagabond?

Also in Dreamfall it was told that universe is created by stories in Storytime. But in Book Two we learn that universe is Lux's dream. The only explanation can be that Lux's dream is shaped by stories from Storytime. So Lux is dying because Storytime is tainted by Undreaming.

From description it seems that Lux and Undreamer were there during The First Dream. So both can be a child of first dreams. And it looks like that Stark, Arcadia and Winter were created during The First Dream. So who dreamed The First Dream?

Is Undreamer that female voice from Kian's nightmare? She speaks about cold and dark.

#53 Riaise

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 14:52

I think the voice from Kian's dream is his mother, isn't it? She calls him "my child" and "my sweet little Kian". Unless Nox/Nyx/Undreamer is/was Kian's mother?



#54 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 15:04

Yeah, it seemed like it was supposed to be Kian's (damned-creepy-straight-out-of-a-horror-movie o_o ) mother.

But I know there was some speculation that it might be an entity pretending to be his mother. At which point it could be Nox/Nyx/Undreamer/Yaga/Prophet/anyone really.

I'm not sure if I want half of these characters to end up being the same people or not. :lol:
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#55 Kianismybae

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 21:16

After read Abnoxious post I agree con the point of Kian, Saga and Zöe and their respective asignations un the post . Clearly the number 3 is the key on DFC. In some way I think that the final book will be the death of me. And Why ALL PEOPLE thinks that Nox/Nyx/Undreamer is the evil? Sometimes dark not meant to be or to symbolize TRUE EVIL. Poor black, dark, glowy eyed kid :c
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#56 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 21:26

That's actually a good point. 

 

Much of this series is about balance and duality and all of that. The Undreaming has definitely been set up as a destructive force, but that doesn't necessarily make it inherently evil. I'm having difficulty remembering exactly what all has been said in game to that end. 

 

The picture of Nox and the words that go with it do feel a bit more sinister, but some of that could be our inherent bias that light = good and dark = evil. 

 

I suspect it will likely be more complicated than a simple good/evil dichotomy. In fact, I'd be disappointed if it wasn't more complicated than that.


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#57 Kianismybae

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 22:00


The picture of Nox and the words that go with it do feel a bit more sinister, but some of that could be our inherent bias that light = good and dark = evil.

I suspect it will likely be more complicated than a simple good/evil dichotomy. In fact, I'd be disappointed if it wasn't more complicated than that.

I suspect that it's more a trinity than a duality thing. And now, I remember of Avatar: The Legend of Korra... In season 2 there is a two entities Raava = Light and Vaatu = Dark... Well in their "last fight" for the world and the spirit world destiny Raava dies ... but there's a line of her who says "Light can't destroy darkness as darkness can't destroy light... If one of us die...the other grows in inside us and will be free again. Neither of us can exist without the other"

I wanna know what do you think of this. It's possible that Lux, Nox and the possible third character are in some way connected and no one exist without the existance of the others?
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#58 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 22:12

True, in this case we have references to there being three (as opposed to twin worlds) and we do have sort of three-ish protagonists in this cycle, etc. When I said balance and duality, I more meant it's a theme for the series as a whole. Or was very much a part of TLJ and seems to also play into the themes of Dreamfall, though in different ways. 

 

I wanna know what do you think of this. It's possible that Lux, Nox and the possible third character are in some way connected and no one exist without the existance of the others?

 

My knee jerk is to say it seems likely. I mean... Light creates shadows and all of that. 

 

On the other hand, Lux is sick and we don't know all the details of that yet, so it's hard to say how that's involved in the others. Also, looking at the text we were given, it's further complicated by the fact that the text with Nox says they were there "before all this terrible brightness." ...But Lux also references the light coming. But Lux means light. 

 

I'm not sure. Hoping there will be some more theory fuel in the teaser trailer for the book. (I'm assuming we're going to get one.) 


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#59 Kianismybae

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 22:20

Well the book four is the book of all revelations i supose. So I think we will know the whole thing soon. Of course the Fifth book will be the final story. Hoping that all our theories will be true :)
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#60 Vainamoinen

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 22:24

I suspect that it's more a trinity than a duality thing. And now, I remember of Avatar: The Legend of Korra... In season 2 there is a two entities Raava = Light and Vaatu = Dark... Well in their "last fight" for the world and the spirit world destiny Raava dies ... but there's a line of her who says "Light can't destroy darkness as darkness can't destroy light... If one of us die...the other grows in inside us and will be free again. Neither of us can exist without the other"

I wanna know what do you think of this. It's possible that Lux, Nox and the possible third character are in some way connected and no one exist without the existance of the others?

 

Right now and especially considering the taglines, I consider Nox to be in no way equal to Lux. In fact, Nox/Darkness is the far older and more powerful creature. Die Finsternis, die sich das Licht gebar:

 

​"...in the darkness, in the time before time, before all this terrible brightness."

 

All encompassing and eternal, far superior to the little light of Lux, which is so close to being extinguished. But not ALL would be lost, because Lux is not alone:

 

"...and the stars were born and everything came apart."

 

Lux' dream could be one of those stars, one of those little lights (or stories if you wish). Yet that little light among many just happens to encompass all that means a damn thing to Zoë Castillo: Stark, Arcadia, the Divide, the Storytime, the Winter. It is Lux' dream universe/story.

 

In that interpretation, Nox can exist without Lux, easily... and preferably.

 

 

 

716f48194a8dc80a2f98f2fd04858898_chapter


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