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Why April can't shift?

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#21 Crowboy

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 00:18

No it wouldn't, at least not with the information we are given. As it stands she should be free to shift between worlds as much as she likes. Maybe later RTG will put some kind of restrictions on it, so it can be used in game play.

besides, she shifts out of arcadia just fine in TLJ.

As for the rest, if I remember rightly, that's all been thought up before (almost everything has), but its just speculation, we have no info to go on.

 

Well, perhaps the fact that April is from Arcadia limits her ability to shift to non native worlds in the current state of the realms. There's just a piece here that doesn't fit to the puzzle (April travelling to Guardian Realm) I'm obviously speculating as we can only guess until RTG resolve this for us, no harm there. 

 

 

That has been my theory for long already. You know how she's always able to shift especiall when she's afraid. Back in TLJ the most shifting that she has done was out of a panicky situjation.

So imagine what happens if she gets knifed ?

I guess but it really depends on the answer to her inability to shift. It's an important part of the story, it has to be.



#22 Lee-m

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 00:40

There's just a piece here that doesn't fit to the puzzle (April travelling to Guardian Realm)

I think my answers above cover that nicely. Shifting to the guardians realm should be perfectly possible if a kin helps send her. The Kin have access along side, the guardian who is, the guardian who was, and the guardian who will be, if I remember Tobias long story correctly.


The idea of April originally being from Arcadia however is a valid one and was doing the rounds back in 2006, a funcom forum, and the really really old forum before that (which is now lost as after as I know). Maybe if you do some digging around the funcom one there might be more info.

You really only get information about Aprils heritage from 3 sources, The white, McAllen(green?) and the Blue of the kin. As far as I remember anyway.

#23 Crowboy

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 05:25

Sorry Lee-m, if the kin can help send April to the realm, Cortez could have helped her shift there in TLJ.

And your answer doesn't fit the puzzle entirely on its own.

If it's only April's psyche that prevent her from shifting, the White Kin wouldn't have said April can't shift on her own.

 

Besides, if I recall correctly, in DF, when April wants to talk to the Gurdian at least one person (Benrime?) ask her why won't she just shift there, and April replies she lost ability to shift, as to imply if she hadn't, she could shift there on her own.



#24 Lee-m

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 14:59

Sorry Lee-m, if the kin can help send April to the realm, Cortez could have helped her shift there in TLJ.

You need to replay TLJ. Cortez cant help April get there. First she needs the stone disc, and when she has it, Cortez is captured and is missing. Even then she still needs the last jewel(s) from McAllen. Basic stuff, it seems you have forgotten how the original plot goes.

 

And your answer doesn't fit the puzzle entirely on its own.
If it's only April's psyche that prevent her from shifting, the White Kin wouldn't have said April can't shift on her own.

Why does it mean there is something else? the white doesnt understand whats going on with April and doesn't understand human emotions very well at all. They may be more to it, but we wont have the information to even have a debate about it right now.

 

Besides, if I recall correctly, in DF, when April wants to talk to the Gurdian at least one person (Benrime?) ask her why won't she just shift there, and April replies she lost ability to shift, as to imply if she hadn't, she could shift there on her own.

April says it was never that easy to get to the guardians realm, and she has never been able to shift there. Which goes along perfectly with what I have just said.
You also need to take into account the different circumstances in the two games. In TLJ the balance is untended, and in dreamfall Gorden has control over it, he can let April in or out (with the kins help it would seem). in TLJ it might not be possible for a human to shift there even with the kins help.


I understand your points, and they are good ones. But right now they just add complication to things that can be explained easily.
maybe DFC will tell us more. With all the theory over the years, someone has to have guessed some of it correct.
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#25 Crowboy

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 15:33

You need to replay TLJ. Cortez cant help April get there. First she needs the stone disc, and when she has it, Cortez is captured and is missing. Even then she still needs the last jewel(s) from McAllen. Basic stuff, it seems you have forgotten how the original plot goes.

Actually I remember it pretty well. Cortez tells April that she needs to find a physical entrance when she returns from Arcadia for the first time. He can't send her there by portal and he acknowledges it. Regarding the jewels, he only says he'll help with the two on Stark, so it's not really relevant.

 

 

Why does it mean there is something else? the white doesnt understand whats going on with April and doesn't understand human emotions very well at all. They may be more to it, but we wont have the information to even have a debate about it right now.

The white kin seems pretty knowledgeable about April's ability, but entirely in the dark when it relates to whoever is hunting the kin. I think it's logical to assume there's a connection, and I would also expect that in a good story.

 

 

April says it was never that easy to get to the guardians realm, and she has never been able to shift there. Which goes along perfectly with what I have just said.
You also need to take into account the different circumstances in the two games. In TLJ the balance is untended, and in dreamfall Gorden has control over it, he can let April in or out (with the kins help it would seem). in TLJ it might not be possible for a human to shift there even with the kins help.

Now this, my friend, is one heck of a speculation, and a not very interesting one at that (At least for me). It feels more of a speculation from a game mechanic point of view instead of based on a story twist: "We had to make an interesting but not long way for April to get to the Guardian realm, so we just use circumstances to explain why what was once not possible is not very possible ". I really would assume there's more to it than just "Circumstances" or dare I call it "discontinuity" :blink: After all, Dreamfall is an interactive story, and when reading a story, every word has a meaning (At least good stories)

 

I get your approach. "Let's keep it simple until we get more information", but I'm actually striving to achieve a viable theory, and I don't have one that fills all the gaps, at least in my book.



#26 Lee-m

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 16:04

Actually I remember it pretty well. Cortez tells April that she needs to find a physical entrance when she returns from Arcadia for the first time. He can't send her there by portal and he acknowledges it. Regarding the jewels, he only says he'll help with the two on Stark, so it's not really relevant.

Well, this is where it gets fuzzy. Cortez doesnt always tell April the truth, nor do a few of her 'friends' for that matter. But I would think due to the balance being untended he cant help her get there, and he is not available to do so even if he could.
 

The white kin seems pretty knowledgeable about April's ability, but entirely in the dark when it relates to whoever is hunting the kin. I think it's logical to assume there's a connection, and I would also expect that in a good story.

We can assume she knows everything about April and her ability's, but does not have good understanding how she feels and how that affects her shifting. So i'll stick with my original points on this one, due to lack of any real evidence to suggest otherwise.
 

Now this, my friend, is one heck of a speculation, and a not very interesting one at that (At least for me).

Now be fair lol, what I have said is just what we really know, its not speculation. One of my points has been, April has never been able to shift to the guardians realm when ever she feels like it. I have given you a list from memory of the people who can get in and out with out help, and April isnt one of them. The circumstances in TLJ are not the usual way things work, and April can get in via the physical entrance in order to fulfill her role of helping the balance.
 

It feels more of a speculation from a game mechanic point of view instead of based on a story twist: "We had to make an interesting but not long way for April to get to the Guardian realm, so we just use circumstances to explain why what was once not possible is not very possible ". I really would assume there's more to it than just "Circumstances" or dare I call it "discontinuity" :blink: After all, Dreamfall is an interactive story, and when reading a story, every word has a meaning (At least good stories)

Wasn't that pretty much one of my original points ? they take Aprils shifting away more as a gameplay mechanic, and just give a simple reason that she can no longer shift.
 

I get your approach. "Let's keep it simple until we get more information", but I'm actually striving to achieve a viable theory, and I don't have one that fills all the gaps, at least in my book.

And I have no objection to this ! its all rather fun, I just don't think the information is there.

I think what you need is the exact transcript between April and Gordan. Does he say all dreams have stopped flowing from Arcadia to Stark ? or is he just talking about the new torrent being one way ? I have never tied Aprils shifting to dreams, and then you need to show Aprils shifting is affected by dreams (a very gray area at best, I know she originally shifts while asleep etc...).

#27 khh

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 16:34

Well, this is where it gets fuzzy. Cortez doesnt always tell April the truth, nor do a few of her 'friends' for that matter. But I would think due to the balance being untended he cant help her get there, and he is not available to do so even if he could.

I agree with Crowboy that the information we have indicates that without the Guardian at his post the only way to enter the Guardian's Realm is to use the key to unlock the portal where the tower was originally built.

Now be fair lol, what I have said is just what we really know, its not speculation. One of my points has been, April has never been able to shift to the guardians realm when ever she feels like it. I have given you a list from memory of the people who can get in and out with out help, and April isnt one of them. The circumstances in TLJ are not the usual way things work, and April can get in via the physical entrance in order to fulfill her role of helping the balance.

The Guardian is able to open a portal to allow anyone entrance to his realm. When April "Shifts" there, it might be that it just pings Gordon so he's able to open said portal.

I think what you need is the exact transcript between April and Gordan. Does he say all dreams have stopped flowing from Arcadia to Stark ? or is he just talking about the new torrent being one way ? I have never tied Aprils shifting to dreams, and then you need to show Aprils shifting is affected by dreams (a very gray area at best, I know she originally shifts while asleep etc...).

Gordon says that dreams are acting strangely and only flowing in one direction, yes.
It is in TLJ that we're told how Shifting ties in with dreams. I believe it is Cortez or Tobias who tells you that when you Shift you travel through the world of dreams (which we may now assume is Storytime). Though I agree that we have no clear way of knowing exactly how the behavior of dreams would affect the ability.

April Ryan is my friend,
Every sorrow she can mend.
When I visit her dark realm,
Does it simply overwhelm.


#28 Lee-m

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 16:47

I agree with Crowboy that the information we have indicates that without the Guardian at his post the only way to enter the Guardian's Realm is to use the key to unlock the portal where the tower was originally built.

yeah I never said otherwise. Originally crowboy suggested cortez should just have been able to help April shift there. My point was the balance is untended and April needs the physical entrance. But the main issue is, she cant shift there with out help even if she does have her ability's. Unless shifters can just shift there when ever they like and we just havent been told that yet.
 

The Guardian is able to open a portal to allow anyone entrance to his realm. When April "Shifts" there, it might be that it just pings Gordon so he's able to open said portal.

I believe I pointed this out too. But I dont think he can let 'anyone' in can he?
How it works exactly we haven't been told, but she needs the kins help, and according Tobias she isnt on the door list to get in and out as she pleases on her own, regardless of the state of her powers. You need to be a kin, or a guardian.
 

Gordon says that dreams are acting strangely and only flowing in one direction, yes.
It is in TLJ that we're told how Shifting ties in with dreams. I believe it is Cortez or Tobias who tells you that when you Shift you travel through the world of dreams (which we may now assume is Storytime). Though I agree that we have no clear way of knowing exactly how the behavior of dreams would affect the ability.

I think its Westhouse who says he had to travel via the world of dreams or something to that effect. I'm not sure there is a description of Aprils shifting route?
As it stands, I am personally not convinced Aprils shifting is dependent on the flow of dreams. It may well be, however we have little information.

to prove the original theory, some one needs to show that the flow of dreams effects Aprils ability to shift, and I dont think we can use her access to the guardians realm to prove that. I'll try re-watch Aprils conversation with Gordan later, I think I have a full quota of steam cloud saves to help me out.

#29 Crowboy

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 18:42

I too remember that Either Cortez or Tobias tell her she travels through the world of dreams.

And IIRC, the Guardian is surprised to see April approach him, so maybe he didn't know she's coming? I don't know, need to replay those parts again and pay closer attention.

 

What I do know for sure, is tended or not, in TLJ they pretty much set as a fact that to enter the Guardian's realm you can either by invitation (anyone can be invited) or by the disc which is no longer available since TLJ used it already.

 

Lee-m: I didn't say the data can't be coarsed a bit to match your theory, but doing so would pretty much indicate that they had no idea how the story goes and they had to improvise along the way, which I refuse to believe until I hear it.



#30 Lee-m

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 19:00

Lee-m: I didn't say the data can't be coarsed a bit to match your theory, but doing so would pretty much indicate that they had no idea how the story goes and they had to improvise along the way, which I refuse to believe until I hear it.

My theory ? I don't have a theory, your the one with a theory in your original posts lol. I'm sticking to Aprils loss of faith causes her loss of shifting, and that its mostly just a game mechanic.
I've just been highlighting as I see it, problems with being able to prove your theory.

I think the story works just fine as it is, at this time only you are complicating it by trying to introduce new reasons for he not being able to shift. Ones I don't think you have been able to prove. If you can i'm all for it.

April physically travels between the divide, which may involve a trip via the storytime. But if it is, its a very short trip she is unaware of and seems totally unaffected by, because her shifting is shown to be pretty much instant. April isnt a dream like zoe when she crosses over, and I don't see any real evidence dreamflow could possibly stop a shifter in full control of their powers.



#31 khh

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 21:31

yeah I never said otherwise. Originally crowboy suggested cortez should just have been able to help April shift there. My point was the balance is untended and April needs the physical entrance. But the main issue is, she cant shift there with out help even if she does have her ability's. Unless shifters can just shift there when ever they like and we just havent been told that yet.

We are in agreement then, I must have misunderstood your position. Also according to the information we have, ordinary Shifter should not be able to go there whenever they like.
 

I believe I pointed this out too. But I dont think he can let 'anyone' in can he?
How it works exactly we haven't been told, but she needs the kins help, and according Tobias she isnt on the door list to get in and out as she pleases on her own, regardless of the state of her powers. You need to be a kin, or a guardian.

Well, explicitly we're just told that the Guardian can open a portal to allow his or her successor in.

I never got the impression that she needed the Kins help to reach the Guardian's Realm, merely that of the Guardian himself. But you are right that in ordinary circumstances only the Guardian and his or her successor can access the Realm. I do not believe the Kin have that ability.
 

I think its Westhouse who says he had to travel via the world of dreams or something to that effect. I'm not sure there is a description of Aprils shifting route?
As it stands, I am personally not convinced Aprils shifting is dependent on the flow of dreams. It may well be, however we have little information.

Brian did say something along those lines, yes
Brian Westhouse : Oh no, you misundertsood. I'm only forty-six. I arrived here about fifteen years ago, but I...left Stark in 1934. Between the worlds, where you dream, time has little meaning. I was trapped, you see, for quite a while.

However
Cortez : To Shift? Si. The power is yours, yes? But for now, you need me to focus your powers, to call forth the dreams.
April : Dreams?
Cortez : Yes. To travel from one world to the next, you must pass through the world of dreams. It's the only way. You are capable of opening a Shift on your own, but you might not be able to.


edit: I like the way this theory ties in with the greater story. I do not think Ragnar would have a cheap explanation as to why she couldn't Shift, and he has certainly never been know to place game mechanic considerations above story considerations (for better or worse).
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April Ryan is my friend,
Every sorrow she can mend.
When I visit her dark realm,
Does it simply overwhelm.


#32 Crowboy

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 21:38

khh, where did you get exact quotes?

 

Lee-m: I guess you're right. You take all that exists and assume nothing else, thus gain nothing more, and stay with the holes that exist. Out of the benefit of the doubt I suggested that some extra information can be introduced to just dully close those holes and be done with it, but I do believe there's more to it than that, as I already said.



#33 khh

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 21:42

Ideally I'd have used Bluejay's TLJ Transcript and Sadelyrate's site, but in the long year those seem to have become unavailable. There is however a flawed copy.


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April Ryan is my friend,
Every sorrow she can mend.
When I visit her dark realm,
Does it simply overwhelm.


#34 thelj

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 21:52

Ok.Regarding April,shifting and dreams.

 

Cortez opens the portal at the back alley of Mercury theatre:

A:What is that?

C:It's a mirror,to reflect your dreams.

 

April meets Tobias:

T:I take it this is your first Shift,your first passage through the Divide?

 

April comes back through the portal and talks to Cortez:

A:You hellped me back,didn't you?

C:To Shift?Si.The power is yours,yes?But for now,you need me to focus your powers,to call forth the dreams.

A:Dreams?

C:Yes.To travel from one world to the next,you must pass through the world of dreams.It's the only way.You are capable of opening a Shift on your own,but you might not be able to.

The power-the magic-is within you.And when you sleep,sometimes you open the portal without even being aware of it.But when you're awake, it's more difficult.With practice,you will do it.

 

Also,if i remember correctly,Cortez talks about the significance of dreams when he meets April at the Roma gallery.

I wonder if April's dreams are trapped beneath the Azadi tower...

 

 

EDIT:Sorry khh,i just saw your post.


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#35 Lee-m

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 22:21

We are in agreement then, I must have misunderstood your position. Also according to the information we have, ordinary Shifter should not be able to go there whenever they like.
Well, explicitly we're just told that the Guardian can open a portal to allow his or her successor in.

Yeah we are, its a long and complicated discussion lol
 

I never got the impression that she needed the Kins help to reach the Guardian's Realm, merely that of the Guardian himself. But you are right that in ordinary circumstances only the Guardian and his or her successor can access the Realm. I do not believe the Kin have that ability.

I dont think thats exactly what tobias says, if you have any more quotes it would be really handy lol

Its the part where he is teaching April about how the divide was created. He says 4 'people' have access. Something like the old guardian, the current guardian and the guardian who will be, and the kin who where instrumental in its making (from memory).
So to get in, April needs an invite, or some help from the kin when the balance is functioning correctly.

edit: Old Alatien woman : This is very little. The Guardian's Realm is home to the Guardian and his tower. No one is permitted within except the Guardian who
was, the Guardian who is, the Guardian who will be. And of course, the Draic Kin who were instrumental in its making.

ok so it wasnt tobias, but I knew some one said it lol ! Old Alatien woman is the Teller.
 
 

However
Cortez : To Shift? Si. The power is yours, yes? But for now, you need me to focus your powers, to call forth the dreams.
April : Dreams?
Cortez : Yes. To travel from one world to the next, you must pass through the world of dreams. It's the only way. You are capable of opening a Shift on your own, but you might not be able to.

Thanks for digging up the quote, make life easier. For me this is pretty cryptic. We know Brian has to trek through the story time on foot and it takes him....well along time. April doesnt have this issue, and right now im unconvinced a bit of dream robbery would affect a powerful shifter hoping over the divide.

 

I do not think Ragnar would have a cheap explanation as to why she couldn't Shift, and he has certainly never been know to place game mechanic considerations above story considerations

say what ? what game have you been playing, the combat is put in there as a total game play mechanic at the expense of story lol.
 

Lee-m: I guess you're right. You take all that exists and assume nothing else, thus gain nothing more, and stay with the holes that exist. Out of the benefit of the doubt I suggested that some extra information can be introduced to just dully close those holes and be done with it, but I do believe there's more to it than that, as I already said.

its not that I think your definitely wrong, you could guess correctly. I could come up with another theory that fits, but that wouldnt make it right. We just are not given enough info in the first game (and even digging back into TLJ) to come to a conclusion.
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#36 Crowboy

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 22:53

Lee-m, I was just sharing my theory, and also learned a lot in the process, details that alluded me or that I didn't connect (Like crow's timeline suggesting April can't shift for at least 8 years)

Why do it? because it's fun, gets you thinking and use your imagination. Actually it's a lot like physics. Usually someone comes up with a theory that describes reality, until someone proves it wrong or incomplete. Then they try to improve that theory or create a new one altogether.

We can pretty much guarantee the existing theories are at least incomplete


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#37 khh

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 23:11

edit: Old Alatien woman : This is very little. The Guardian's Realm is home to the Guardian and his tower. No one is permitted within except the Guardian who
was, the Guardian who is, the Guardian who will be. And of course, the Draic Kin who were instrumental in its making.

ok so it wasnt tobias, but I knew some one said it lol ! Old Alatien woman is the Teller.

Ah, yes, you're quite right. Makes it sort of odd that April got access, and that McAllen needed the stone plate then.
 

Thanks for digging up the quote, make life easier. For me this is pretty cryptic. We know Brian has to trek through the story time on foot and it takes him....well along time. April doesnt have this issue, and right now im unconvinced a bit of dream robbery would affect a powerful shifter hoping over the divide.

It is cryptic, yes. While we can conclude that Shifting must have _something_ to do with Storytime and dreams, the precise connection and mechanisms are still up for debate.
I think it would be possible to explain in a satisfactory way Aprils inability to Shift that way, but it is by no means the only option. And, as you said, Dreamfall is a game about faith and Faith.
 

say what ? what game have you been playing, the combat is put in there as a total game play mechanic at the expense of story lol.

Ouch! Yeah, I guess I deserved that.

Crowboy, you don't have to defend your theorizing. We all do it, and most of us enjoy it. There hasn't been much else to do these years :P
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April Ryan is my friend,
Every sorrow she can mend.
When I visit her dark realm,
Does it simply overwhelm.


#38 Lee-m

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 23:40

Ah, yes, you're quite right. Makes it sort of odd that April got access, and that McAllen needed the stone plate then.

McAllen doesn't need it for him. He needs to get Gorden in to run the balance and reunite the worlds.
So he needs everything that april needs to get in there. The only part I find odd is that it makes April go though the trails when it has no intention of accepting her as guardian.

April can get in as she has the stone disc, and the balance is untended.
 

It is cryptic, yes. While we can conclude that Shifting must have _something_ to do with Storytime

no one said what cortez is talking about is the storytime, could just as easily be the house of all worlds or something else. We get given no information to draw that conclusion (not yet anyway)
 

Crowboy, you don't have to defend your theorizing. We all do it, and most of us enjoy it. There hasn't been much else to do these years :P

absolutely. If you come up with a good one, you get a big debate :)
please dont make my counter arguments the wrong way, I find this stuff fun, and you have a good idea. I always learn more from these debates too, its not as if I am an expert on the game lore or anything like that.

#39 thelj

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 00:00

and right now im unconvinced a bit of dream robbery would affect a powerful shifter hoping over the divide.

 

 

Are you talking about the Arcadian people in general,being robbed of dreams, or about April?Because regarding April,i think it's more a case of dream deprivation.I guess at some point, she just stopped dreaming,figuratively speaking(maybe even literally?).That's pretty much a given for someone who has lost faith,don't you think?

I know the whole dreaming thing obviously refers to people dreaming while sleeping,but after searching the quotes above,i got the feeling that Cortez could (also) mean dreams as in having hopes,goals etc.

 

 

 
Shifting must have _something_ to do with Storytime and dreams

 

I totally agree about shifting and dreaming being strongly connected but i don't think Storytime has anything to do with shifting.Both April and Bryan crossed the Divide (Storytime=/=Divide,right?),but Bryan being a non shifter had to make a (looooong) stop at Storytime to achieve that.Nothing indicates that April ever passed through Storytime while shifting.



#40 Lee-m

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 00:15

Are you talking about the Arcadian people in general,being robbed of dreams

that is not whats happening is it ? Stark people are being robbed of their dreams via use of the dreamer, dreamcore and that swerly blue mess april finds in arcadia to store them. As I understand it, folks in arcadia are currently unaffected.
 

Nothing indicates that April ever passed through Storytime while shifting.

As it stands, thats the way I see it too.





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