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white lady white kin house of all words interlude faith

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#1 Skizzo

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 08:32

Apologies if this has been mentioned somewhere else already, but I couldn't find a particular topic about this.

 

When Saga sees the White Lady in the House of all Words in the first interlude, she is exactly that: all white. Whether this white lady is the White Kin (which I believe she is) does not change the fact that this is exactly the way that Faith described the white lady that visited her at the end of Dreamfall. In fact, she described the woman to Zoë as being 'all white'. So it would appear that both Faith and Saga have met the same White Lady.


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#2 pazzer

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 12:49

Most likely that white kin is also white lady Faith describes. Though surpose could also be the first dreamer.
 



#3 Skizzo

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 13:26

Well, given the way the White Lady that Saga sees looks and talks, she does bear a close resemblance to the White Kin that we see in Dreamfall. And if the White Lady Saga sees is indeed the same one that Faith describes (which to me seems to be the case) we can assume that Faith did indeed talk to the White Kin, also known as April's sister.


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#4 mse

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 13:53

I think we can all agree that the White Lady = White Dragon, I don't know if it's the same voice actor, but it's definitely the Draic Kin. What's more interesting is how you pointed out that Faith and Saga probably saw her in the same ghost-like form. We know that Faith was in a place in-between of her own construct because she was reluctant to move on after her death, and I always interpreted her saying that the White visited her not long before Zoe showed up meaning that the White was dead as well. That when we see her getting attacked at the end of Dreamfall she really does get killed. And if the White is "dead" when she appears to Saga, then it would affirm the assumption that Saga was born after April's death... although, again, I feel like the HoAW's timeline isn't linear. It's also possible that the White can simply choose to become incorporeal, or travel to Faith's Dollhouse. Faith was, after all, relaying the White Lady's message to Zoe about April all along. Maybe the White isn't even dead, maybe the "shadow" in Westhouse is benevolent, maybe all of our theories were wrong all along. I don't know, this post is totally all over the place but I'm just going to leave it as it is because at least it conveys how confused this game makes me. :)


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#5 Skizzo

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 14:17

Although the White Kin could very well have become a 'ghost' after the events at the end of Dreamfall, I feel it is a bit too premature to assume that is actually the case. Like you pointed out: maybe the White can simply enter other realms in this incorporeal form.

That the HoAW probably isn't linear we know from the fact that in TLJ Lady Alvane tells her story about TLJ after the events of TLJ themselves, obviously, but it is that same Lady Alvane who helps April. On the other hand, we know from the interlude in the third book of DFC that Etta has been gone for some time now, while Saga continues to grow up. This points to a lineair course of events. So I'd say that in the HoAW time is lineair, but the HoAW itself exists out of time. That still leaves the matter of whether Saga was born after April died or not, but perhaps that is exactly the point: whether Saga is April reincarnated or whether Saga is in fact the young April is irrelevant, because the moment Saga leaves the HoAW she could end up anywhere/anytime. Meaning that she could end up at some point in time before the events of TLJ and Dreamfall, but she could just as easily end up in a time after those events.

 

And no worries: you're not the only one rambling and going all over the place with theories. ;)


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#6 khh

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 21:26

I also think that the spirit from Interlude I and The White Lady is the same person, and that that person is the New White of the Kin. That does pose an interesting question though - why would she appear to Faith? Saga is obviously special in some way, but Faith? She didn't have a destiny, as far as we can tell.


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April Ryan is my friend,
Every sorrow she can mend.
When I visit her dark realm,
Does it simply overwhelm.


#7 Dmm

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 23:17

I also think that the spirit from Interlude I and The White Lady is the same person, and that that person is the New White of the Kin. That does pose an interesting question though - why would she appear to Faith? Saga is obviously special in some way, but Faith? She didn't have a destiny, as far as we can tell.

 

For The White Lady it was about saving April and she knew Zoe would be the one to save her. I always thought that is why The White Lady contacted Faith because of her connection to Zoe and because she had the ability to send Zoe to Arcadia.



#8 khh

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 23:26

For The White Lady it was about saving April and she knew Zoe would be the one to save her. I always thought that is why The White Lady contacted Faith because of her connection to Zoe and because she had the ability to send Zoe to Arcadia.

So how come the White Lady could appear to Faith, who could see her, and not Zoë? And why Baby Saga, but not Young Saga? But you're probably right about the logic there - though I'm not sure if Faith has played the entirety of her part yet.


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April Ryan is my friend,
Every sorrow she can mend.
When I visit her dark realm,
Does it simply overwhelm.


#9 pazzer

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 00:14

Don't recall White telling April she was in any danger. As surely would have meant more coming from her than somebody April had never met. Also by sending message White ends up geting attacked and possibly dead. Which makes April seem more important. Am wondering if April never left the dream chamber. Also curious why Faith agrees to deliver message.



#10 Dmm

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 00:57

So how come the White Lady could appear to Faith, who could see her, and not Zoë? And why Baby Saga, but not Young Saga? But you're probably right about the logic there - though I'm not sure if Faith has played the entirety of her part yet.

 

Perhaps, because Faith was dead and Zoe wasn't. After April died, it may be she encountered the White Lady and was guided by her to be reborn as Saga. The White Lady said to Baby Saga she would not be able to see or hear as she grew older. I don't think why this is so is explained.

 

Don't recall White telling April she was in any danger. As surely would have meant more coming from her than somebody April had never met. Also by sending message White ends up geting attacked and possibly dead. Which makes April seem more important. Am wondering if April never left the dream chamber. Also curious why Faith agrees to deliver message.

 

Remember, April was having a crisis of faith, she wasn't listening to anybody. The danger wasn't physical but emotional. April made no effort to save her life and let the soldier run her through.


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#11 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 01:44

The White Lady said to Baby Saga she would not be able to see or hear as she grew older. I don't think why this is so is explained.

 

That didn't strike me as particularly strange. In a lot of cultures and belief systems, babies are supposed to be able to see "through the veil" or otherwise see spirits, ghosts, angels, what have you. Something about the eyes of innocence being more open or birth being close to death or something else along those lines.

 

So I just assumed the fact that when the spirit of the White said that Saga would no longer be able to see her, but that she would be there, she meant something along those lines. 


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#12 Skizzo

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 08:39

If we take a closer look at the order in which things took place in DF and now in DFC in regards to the White Lady, perhaps we can see things a bit more clearly. So this is simply to sum things up:

 

  • Zoë encounters Faith, or rather an image of Faith early on in the game. Faith tells her to find and save April. Given the events at the end of DF, it appears that it was the White Lady who instructed Faith to do so. So apparently at the beginning of DF the White Lady was already in contact with Faith and apparently she could contact Faith but not Zoë directly.
  • Later on in DF, April meets the White Kin. As mentioned, many of us believe she is the same as the White Lady. The White Kin mentions nothing to April about her needing to be saved. Remarkable, but possible.
  • Some time after that, Zoë meets the White Kin and indeed, she is now directly being instructed by the White Kin to at least go where she is needed the most and she ends up at the rebel camp where we can only assume that she somehow manages to save April, because after this she once more ends up with Faith.
  • Before Zoë ends up with Faith again, but after Zoë has talked to the White Kin, the White Kin is attacked. We don't know what happens to her.
  • Faith then tells Zoë that according to the White Lady April has been saved, which means that after Zoë has met with the White Kin, the White Kin/White Lady has contacted Faith.
  • Then we get to Saga as a baby. Granted, we do not know if these events take place before, during or after any of the events in TLJ, DF and/or DFC, but due to the order of the games, I will put this event at the end of the list. The White Lady talks to Saga and that is the last we see of her. For now, at least.

One thing that stands out to me immediately after summing this up is that apparently the White Lady was already able to contact Faith before she was attacked and possibly killed, since from the beginning of DF Faith is telling Zoë to find and save April. The theory that the White Lady/the White Kin can only visit Faith after she has been attacked/killed at the library does not seem to stick, then.

 

And if indeed Saga's story does take place after the events in DF (but not necessarily those in DFC) and if Saga is somehow April reincarnated, the way the White Lady talks to Saga does seem to make sense, more or less, at least to me.


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#13 Sarah_Stark

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 08:58

If we take a closer look at the order in which things took place in DF and now in DFC in regards to the White Lady, perhaps we can see things a bit more clearly. So this is simply to sum things up:

 

  • Zoë encounters Faith, or rather an image of Faith early on in the game. Faith tells her to find and save April. Given the events at the end of DF, it appears that it was the White Lady who instructed Faith to do so. So apparently at the beginning of DF the White Lady was already in contact with Faith and apparently she could contact Faith but not Zoë directly.
  • Later on in DF, April meets the White Kin. As mentioned, many of us believe she is the same as the White Lady. The White Kin mentions nothing to April about her needing to be saved. Remarkable, but possible.
  • Some time after that, Zoë meets the White Kin and indeed, she is now directly being instructed by the White Kin to at least go where she is needed the most and she ends up at the rebel camp where we can only assume that she somehow manages to save April, because after this she once more ends up with Faith.
  • Before Zoë ends up with Faith again, but after Zoë has talked to the White Kin, the White Kin is attacked. We don't know what happens to her.
  • Faith then tells Zoë that according to the White Lady April has been saved, which means that after Zoë has met with the White Kin, the White Kin/White Lady has contacted Faith.
  • Then we get to Saga as a baby. Granted, we do not know if these events take place before, during or after any of the events in TLJ, DF and/or DFC, but due to the order of the games, I will put this event at the end of the list. The White Lady talks to Saga and that is the last we see of her. For now, at least.

One thing that stands out to me immediately after summing this up is that apparently the White Lady was already able to contact Faith before she was attacked and possibly killed, since from the beginning of DF Faith is telling Zoë to find and save April. The theory that the White Lady/the White Kin can only visit Faith after she has been attacked/killed at the library does not seem to stick, then.

 

And if indeed Saga's story does take place after the events in DF (but not necessarily those in DFC) and if Saga is somehow April reincarnated, the way the White Lady talks to Saga does seem to make sense, more or less, at least to me.

 

Reading it like that, an image arrived in my head of a new way of looking at the Divide: Perhaps it's not just magic and technology in the sense we think, but rather that in however it was created, space-time was warped, and Arcadia is actually the past, with Stark the future. The HoaW could be the present, or at least some way that time is bridged. Of course it's likely wrong. There's little hint to suggest anything about space-time being involved in the story, outside of Brian being trapped for so long between worlds. It's just an image that flashed into my head, and so thought I'd share.

 

As for the whole Zoe saving April: I have always wondered about this, but since playing through again, I'm wondering if it's something to do with how she speaks to Kian, though I can't see how Zoe influenced that. The only other theory I have is that Zoe saved her simply by witnessing her ''death'' and thus making it a part of her own reality/truth. Had she not seen it and headed back to Stark instead, April's fate would have been unknown to her. I feel this is significant.

 

Though it could just as easily not be.
 


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I could of course be very wrong.


#14 Pawlo_86

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 09:10

1. I pretty like a theory that Arcadia is the past, HoAW/Storytime is present and Stark is future. But The Balance releates to Magic and Science. Because of Chaos Magic and Science were separated. Stark is a world of Science while Arcadia is a world of Magic. In Dreamer Cycle Balance seems reversed - Science goes to Arcadia while Magic to Stark.

2. It seems that Zoe was needed in Swamp City for something. She saved April there. But how? No idea.

#15 Dmm

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 13:33

That didn't strike me as particularly strange. In a lot of cultures and belief systems, babies are supposed to be able to see "through the veil" or otherwise see spirits, ghosts, angels, what have you. Something about the eyes of innocence being more open or birth being close to death or something else along those lines.

 

So I just assumed the fact that when the spirit of the White said that Saga would no longer be able to see her, but that she would be there, she meant something along those lines. 

 

Yes, I am aware of that. I just didn't know if it applied in this case or there was some other reason.



#16 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 14:51

Yes, I am aware of that. I just didn't know if it applied in this case or there was some other reason.

 

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be that guy, just was explaining how I interpreted the scene and why I didn't put that on my list of "things that need an explanation." 

 

It's definitely possible that there's another / different reason for it. 


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#17 longnightfalling

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 17:22

If we take a closer look at the order in which things took place in DF and now in DFC in regards to the White Lady, perhaps we can see things a bit more clearly. So this is simply to sum things up:

 

  • Zoë encounters Faith, or rather an image of Faith early on in the game. Faith tells her to find and save April. Given the events at the end of DF, it appears that it was the White Lady who instructed Faith to do so. So apparently at the beginning of DF the White Lady was already in contact with Faith and apparently she could contact Faith but not Zoë directly.
  • Later on in DF, April meets the White Kin. As mentioned, many of us believe she is the same as the White Lady. The White Kin mentions nothing to April about her needing to be saved. Remarkable, but possible.
  • Some time after that, Zoë meets the White Kin and indeed, she is now directly being instructed by the White Kin to at least go where she is needed the most and she ends up at the rebel camp where we can only assume that she somehow manages to save April, because after this she once more ends up with Faith.
  • Before Zoë ends up with Faith again, but after Zoë has talked to the White Kin, the White Kin is attacked. We don't know what happens to her.
  • Faith then tells Zoë that according to the White Lady April has been saved, which means that after Zoë has met with the White Kin, the White Kin/White Lady has contacted Faith.
  • Then we get to Saga as a baby. Granted, we do not know if these events take place before, during or after any of the events in TLJ, DF and/or DFC, but due to the order of the games, I will put this event at the end of the list. The White Lady talks to Saga and that is the last we see of her. For now, at least.

One thing that stands out to me immediately after summing this up is that apparently the White Lady was already able to contact Faith before she was attacked and possibly killed, since from the beginning of DF Faith is telling Zoë to find and save April. The theory that the White Lady/the White Kin can only visit Faith after she has been attacked/killed at the library does not seem to stick, then.

 

And if indeed Saga's story does take place after the events in DF (but not necessarily those in DFC) and if Saga is somehow April reincarnated, the way the White Lady talks to Saga does seem to make sense, more or less, at least to me.

 

Putting the events into chronological order provides some interesting perspective, for sure.  The thing that stands out to me is that there is a version of the White who is instructing Faith that April needs saving, and one that seems blissfully unaware of the dangers to April and who doesn't warn her about them.  

 

Could it be that we're seeing time as a circle here?  Could the White who instructs Faith at the beginning already be dead?  I get the impression that after she was killed in the library (assuming that's what happened), she became non-corporeal and part of something bigger.  Perhaps to be reborn later, perhaps not.  But in the meantime she's in a limbo state and can affect events in the worlds around her, regardless of when.  Her death frees her from time, and she's able to orchestrate the saving of April Ryan in the "past."  It could also mean that Saga is actually young April, and the White is there to orchestrate and help with her birth and her direction in life.  Does that sound crazy?


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#18 Indrid Cold

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 17:40

The living White did tell Zoë that April needed saving...
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#19 inspector

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 18:25

Don't recall White telling April she was in any danger. As surely would have meant more coming from her than somebody April had never met. Also by sending message White ends up geting attacked and possibly dead. Which makes April seem more important. Am wondering if April never left the dream chamber. Also curious why Faith agrees to deliver message.

 

Also the White has seen and talked to both April and Zoe. However she did not say anything about saving issue to April and about Faith to Zoe. Is this just because of the famous cryptic attidude of the Kin or are the White Lady and White Kin different people?


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#20 Ringtail

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 18:48

Putting the events into chronological order provides some interesting perspective, for sure. The thing that stands out to me is that there is a version of the White who is instructing Faith that April needs saving, and one that seems blissfully unaware of the dangers to April and who doesn't warn her about them.

Could it be that we're seeing time as a circle here? Could the White who instructs Faith at the beginning already be dead? I get the impression that after she was killed in the library (assuming that's what happened), she became non-corporeal and part of something bigger. Perhaps to be reborn later, perhaps not. But in the meantime she's in a limbo state and can affect events in the worlds around her, regardless of when. Her death frees her from time, and she's able to orchestrate the saving of April Ryan in the "past." It could also mean that Saga is actually young April, and the White is there to orchestrate and help with her birth and her direction in life. Does that sound crazy?


I like this a lot (although it does tend toward the sort of timey-wimey jiggery-pokery I've expressed skepticism about before). The White in Prologue 1 looks just like Dreamfall's Young White Kin, but she seems to have more knowledge and less naïveté than the Young White. So, it makes sense to me that the White in the Prologue has a bit more of the knowledge and experience of the Mother from TLJ, which might be the case if she were "freed from time," like you propose.





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