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Racial representation in Dreamfall Chapters and the rest of the series


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#21 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 21:23

Shitbot, you are of course entitled to your opinion. I'm all for discussing racial issues as portrayed in Dreamfall Chapters. But this assertion that white males are somehow under attack in the game is really bizarre. And I really don't think that's something most people are seeing in this game. Also, this "clarification" of what whiteness means is making me very uncomfortable and I feel treads into dangerous territory. 

 

I do not censor my speech or commit to arbitrary taboos on the whims of any SJW shitlord or MRA neckbeard, for that matter. Feel free to keep threatening my freedom of speech, though.

 

Yeah, no. That's not how that works. 

 

Freedom of speech protects you from the government jailing you for speaking your mind. It does not give you the right to say whatever you want, wherever you want, without consequence. This is a privately owned and operated forum. There are rules that members are expected to follow. 

 

Really about our only strict rule is that we don't tolerate personal attacks and throwing pejoratives at people.


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#22 Roseweave

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 21:26

Holy shit the amount of games that depict brown people as terrorists or not at all and this is what you're latching onto? There are COUNTLESS games you could play instead. The reason why a lot of "progressive" things will show white dudes as the villain is because when we focus on diversity, we focus on having the more heroic/relatable characters non-white, because we have enough PoC villains. Hell look at Iron Man, or Dr. Strange  - casing the whitest man ever with a black dude as a villain.

Not to mention that in many ways, the white dude being the villain is actually kind of realistic. White dudes bomb the middle east and funded terrorist organsiations(while using them as further reason to bomb the middle east). White dudes caused the global economic crash. White dudes are enforcing austerity across europe. White dudes colonised most of the world. White dudes are most often in positions of power, and generally when it comes to villains especially in Cyberpunk type settings that's what we go for.

The depiction of white dudes in games is NOT a valid racial issue. Not when almost every other game lets you play as a white dude.

This is SO not the forum to use the term "SJW" on either. 


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#23 Roseweave

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 21:32

Certainly. My father was officially the last person on earth to say "Fräulein" without the intent of mockery.
 
As to the rest... April was hetero, it's too early to judge what sexuality Saga prefers and her relationship with Magnus ist just about what happens when your father is the only person in existence for you.
 
Arguing that the villains are predominantly white/male is one thing, but arguing that the good guys aren't, huh, that's even more difficult.
 
Gordon Halloway, white male, turned out pretty good at the end. He's holding the Balance together for more than a decade now.
The former Guardian Adrian, white male. Sacrificed his life for the Balance.
Horatio Nebevay, white male. April seems to like him at least. Well, until she sinks his ship.
Minstrum Tobias Grensret, one of the most beloved characters of the series, white male (not too sure though. It IS pretty dark in there).
Minstrum Yerin though, white male. Much more willingly helpful to April than most of the diversity crew to Zoë in Chapters!
Reza Temiz, white male. Mighty, bold underground international journalist with far reaching connections unknown to his naive former girlfriend.
Damien Cavanaugh, white male. Concocted, entirely on his own, a plan to bring down WatiCorp, using Zoë as his executing maid.
Burns Flipper, central and most memorable, white male. Invaluable companion to April, his treachery notwithstanding.
Captain Balsay Bachim, white male. Sacrificed himself to get Kian out of prison.
Gabriel Castillo, white male. Would give his arms, legs and head for his daughter.
Brynn, very white male. Sacrificed himself for the rebel cause and for April Ryan in particular.
[Admiral] Blind Bob, beloved, white and male. Joined the rebels to save the magicals.
 
Falk Friedman has pulled the long awaited Terminator 2 already. I consider him the coolest male character in Chapters.
And Roman Zelenka may also have a chance to redeem himself, now that it's clear that he didn't quite work for WatiCorp.

 

We'll see about Brian Westhouse as well. In any case, he is a very positive character in The Longest Journey, and I wouldn't welcome if he's retconned into having been evil all along.
 
These are not tertiary characters. They're as central to the experience as the more diverse crew.

 

 


Herewith proven wrong, and even if they were, we have more than enough examples to the contrary in fiction these last decades... we can pour a bit more into that other scale pan, no problem.

Also, I ask you once more to not use the term "SJW". It bears no meaning besides the insult.

This list is longer than the list of games that anti-SJWs tend to pull out to justify there isn't a problem with women in games, ironically. (Not 100% on Reza or Gabrielle being white though, especially Reza, his name is clearly turkish/middle eatern).

Why do we even have to do it? It's absurd. People like shitbot constantly demand we relate to straight white dudes in games to the point of fatigue, but he can't relate to Kian, or Zoë, or any of the straight white characters that ARE actually shown positively?

And like "white" isn't even a thing. Aside from some persian influence, Kian does not come from a real earth culture. He happens to be darker skinned, looking what we'd call non-white in our world. But it's an arbitrary distinction. There should be no reason you can't relate to a character purely based on the colour of their skin. But it does help, again, address the fatigue of constantly having to relate to white guys if you're NOT white, and never seeing yourself in a positive role.

So what if TLJ/DJ DID follow a minority women vs. big bad white dude narrative? There's a degree of truth to that and it help balance out the multitude of games that tell you murdering sex workers is hilarious.


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#24 Roseweave

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 21:36

That's true, but he was such a throwaway character with very little screen time.

NOW YOU KNOW HOW IT FEELS.

Seriously? 


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#25 Roseweave

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 21:40

Also some people DON'T regard Slavic as stereotypically white. Many Slavic people can actually be darker than the average white person and have more asiatic/middle eastern features. I would say Slavic people still face a degree of racism which "White" groups generally don't. With the Caucasus region in particular it's very ambiguous, since they're more middle eastern than anything, but still have elements of Slavic culture. 

Globally speaking, you're talking about people who can trace their origins to the UK(traditionally excluding Ireland, but nowadays yeah), Germany, France, Scandanavia(though some Scandanavians can have atypical "white" features too - look at Björk, not to mention the native Saami) . That's a pretty small annex of the world given how vast Africa and Asia are.

Why are white people so important? 


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#26 Roseweave

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 21:45

I CAN'T BELIEVE HE CALLED FLIPPER BURNS A WALKING INFO DUMP WHEN HE DOESN'T EVEN WALK

DID YOU EVEN PLAY THE GAME

GAGGING RN


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#27 Sebsghost

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 21:49

I think this is gonna be my last post here, because this just seems a bit silly...

 

I mean.

 

We're talking about a game where one character's closet companions are a blue skinned man, a cat girl, and some kind of gazelle creature. This obsession with paleness in the humanoid residents of one half of the world is just...strange. Kian, Sahya, and Vamon are ethnically the same. They're from the same country. So who cares, honestly?

 

There are positive white characters in the game. There are positive male characters in the game. There are a buttload of positive heterosexual (or otherwise unstated) characters in the game. So I really don't see the point in complaints.


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#28 Shitbot

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 21:49

 

 

Not to mention that in many ways, the white dude being the villain is actually kind of realistic. White dudes bomb the middle east and funded terrorist organsiations(while using them as further reason to bomb the middle east). White dudes caused the global economic crash. White dudes are enforcing austerity across europe. White dudes colonised most of the world. White dudes are most often in positions of power, and generally when it comes to villains especially in Cyberpunk type settings that's what we go for.

I am grateful for this display of anti-White racism that supports my original assumption that the negative portrayal of White males throughout the series is a deliberate bias meant to instill feelings of hatred and paranoia against them.

 

But this assertion that white males are somehow under attack in the game is really bizarre. And I really don't think that's something most people are seeing in this game2

This is an empty declarative statement, which can be appended to just about anything you find subjectively intolerable. It's not how a discussion works. I have supported my argument by presenting the majority of positive and negative major and secondary characters from every game in the series released up to this date. My detractors have only succeeded in bringing up extremely minor characters with little screen time that no longer participate in the story, or falsely referred to some of the characters I mentioned as White, despite ample evidence to the contrary. 

 

Medieval corrupt church politicians may have found the idea of the Earth revolving around the Sun bizarre, but it did nothing to change reality. Neither did their pointed refusal to examine Galileo's arguments in support of his theory, or their attempts to silence him.

 

 

 

 

Freedom of speech protects you from the government jailing you for speaking your mind

This is a legal fallacy recently popularized by the sensationalist sector of the internet that ripped a few clauses from the US COnstitution and pretended they are somehow the be-all end-all definition of freedom of speech. Here's an extract from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

 

 

 

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers

This applies to all parties, both governmental and private. The same clause is found in the basic laws of just about any country that strives to uphold the principles of freedom. Once again: being a private forum does not give you the right to arbitrarily censor and taboo terms based on anyone's subjective dislike or paranoia.

 

 

Really about our only strict rule is that we don't tolerate personal attacks and throwing pejoratives at people.

 

That's good, because SJW is neither a personal insult, nor a pejorative. It can be used as such, but then again, so can any other word or term.

 

I find it bizarre and objectionable that a moderator of this forum is leaving off-topic messages with nary a single word relating to the topic of the thread, and provoking flame wars by making baseless accusations. I do not intend to respond to any further attacks that have nothing to do with to Dreamfall Chapters, be it the stifling policies of this forum, or discussions on human rights.



#29 Roseweave

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 22:02

 

I am grateful for this display of anti-White racism that supports my original assumption that the negative portrayal of White males throughout the series is a deliberate bias meant to instill feelings of hatred and paranoia against them.

 

This is an empty declarative statement, which can be appended to just about anything you find subjectively intolerable. It's not how a discussion works. I have supported my argument by presenting the majority of positive and negative major and secondary characters from every game in the series released up to this date. My detractors have only succeeded in bringing up extremely minor characters with little screen time that no longer participate in the story, or falsely referred to some of the characters I mentioned as White, despite ample evidence to the contrary. 

 

Medieval corrupt church politicians may have found the idea of the Earth revolving around the Sun bizarre, but it did nothing to change reality. Neither did their pointed refusal to examine Galileo's arguments in support of his theory, or their attempts to silence him.

 

 

This is a legal fallacy recently popularized by the sensationalist sector of the internet that ripped a few clauses from the US COnstitution and pretended they are somehow the be-all end-all definition of freedom of speech. Here's an extract from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

 

This applies to all parties, both governmental and private. The same clause is found in the basic laws of just about any country that strives to uphold the principles of freedom. Once again: being a private forum does not give you the right to arbitrarily censor and taboo terms based on anyone's subjective dislike or paranoia.

 

That's good, because SJW is neither a personal insult, nor a pejorative. It can be used as such, but then again, so can any other word or term.

 

I find it bizarre and objectionable that a moderator of this forum is leaving off-topic messages with nary a single word relating to the topic of the thread, and provoking flame wars by making baseless accusations. I do not intend to respond to any further attacks that have nothing to do with to Dreamfall Chapters, be it the stifling policies of this forum, or discussions on human rights.

 

Bro it's literally true. It is primarily white people who fucked up the middle east - hell, the entire Muslim world(and the south part of Africa) is fucked in a lot of ways - in no small part due to colonialism. There was a time when they were a sight more socially progressive than western europe. I'm not interested in debating a definition of racism that comes from the dictionary, and if you haven't read any of the numerous times people have been called out for doing that shit, then you need to go educate yourself. I'm interested in actual oppression, and you are not oppressed for being a white dude. And you definitely aren't marginalised when it comes to gaming.

You're acting like some kind of freedom fighter now because you've probably never experienced real marginalisation. I'm white - true, but I'm also trans, autistic, amongst other things and have all kinds of shitty trauma from years of being stalked and bullied. Hell, right now I'm dealing with the fact that some creepy ass trolls are dissecting a picture of my boobs. Your worst problem right now is that one game doesn't feature enough straight white dudes, when every other game does, and that some people are calling you out(and rightfully so) for derailing from REAL discussions of things like race and sexuality that actually affect people and their self confidence.

SJW is a slur, and one used to silence people much more aggressively than what you're claiming is happening to you now. Don't use it. 

Again, why is it okay that everyone who's not a straight white male has to put up with the vast majority of games/movies/whatever featuring them as the heroes? You're asked to deal with SWMs being in the background for once

Hell, there are no trans characters in this supposedly futuristic series at all. It sucks, but at least we're relatively rare enough to justify it. Maybe in the future white people just aren't as important anymore which is why people like Kaiser Wolf are so sore.
 



#30 Tina

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 22:07

My take on this topic: We can't all agree. And we can't always change peoples' opinions. We are also free to ignore statements and make up our own opinions. And, free to think "whatever..".

That's all, good night.
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#31 Bruno

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 22:13

Hey, I just learned that apparently I am not white. The things this forum teaches me never cease to amaze me.


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#32 Silvirish4ever

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 22:35

Hey, I just learned that apparently I am not white. The things this forum teaches me never cease to amaze me.

 

Lol I know, join the club! Even though sheets of paper are darker than me. And how I wish I was exaggerating.

 

Anyway, not much else to add, since apparently whatever is said against the original argument is quickly dismissed and soon forgotten. Just one thing: games cannot, and will not be custom made to suit every individual's perception of social justice. So too bad you don't feel this one is up to your standards. It certainly is up to most of ours :)


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#33 cerb998

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 22:49

Same here. I guess we're just not Aryan enough  :rolleyes:



#34 Verterdegete

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 00:23

 

 

 

I do not censor my speech or commit to arbitrary taboos on the whims of any SJW shitlord or MRA neckbeard, for that matter. Feel free to keep threatening my freedom of speech, though.

 

 

 

Well, i'm pro-GamerGate, and i too think that you are strongly exaggerating here. And to be honest, it appears to me that you came here just to argue with people.

 

 

Sure, the Diversitytm in DF:C does appear forced, and the game can get tediously preachy at times, but it's still a beautiful and intelligently written game. I personally have pretty much given up on gaming. The mainstream games these days are prevalently adolescent power fantasies, and the indie scene is flooded with pretentious pseudo-arthouse bores, like The Cat Lady and Gone Home.  This and The Secret World are the only games i have on my computer now. Those and Titanfall, because i still like to blow shit up and drive giant mechs.

 

You call out for freedom of speech, but don't forget that freedom of expression also includes their right to make a game the way they want to. It's not as if your tax payers money goes to making this game, or that the state is forcing you to play it. It's a small underground project that you can choose to play it, or forget about it. At least the latter is easy, because the game is literally non existent in the gaming media.



#35 magic88889

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 08:14

Freedom of speech does NOT give you permission to say whatever you like.  I mean, I guess technically it does, but what is appropriate to say is a whole other matter.  Bullies use the "freedom of speech" thing to justify what they say.  That doesn't make what they're saying OK in any way!  Same as if I were to start swearing around my parents, I would expect to at least be yelled at.

 

Just because you are free to speak, does not mean that you are free to speak without consequences!  If what you say is against cultural norms, forum rules, anti-harassment laws, anti-bullying laws, ect. then you have to expect that there will be consequences. 

 

So no!  You are NOT free to say whatever you like.  You ARE free to express your opinion, but you are NOT free to use terms and phases that are commonly used racists to harasses and hurt.  You can argue all you want about "dictionary" definitions, but connotation and common usage are just as (if not more) important. 

 

 

Sorry for the rant, but people using "freedom of speech" to justify shit like this really gets on my nerves.


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#36 Hitana

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 09:04

Geepers, it will never cease to amaze me (negatively) how out of the way discussions can go and I can't help but feel that it is because of written vs. spoken conversation.

Anyhoo, I just wanted to say that I'm not sure which features you take into account to determine if someone is caucasian, asian, etc.

I think of clearly Pakistani or other Arab people, who have bright eyes. I think of me and my family being fairly white even though we are Indians. I think of other Asian ethnities that intentionally make themselves look brighter; even go through surgery to look more European. I think of all the people around me in this multicultural city, where only names could tell me where they come from, if anything at all. I guess I just don't get the issue - Rag/Dag are white too afaik and they are surely not evil.

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#37 Bluejay

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 10:05

Consider history where nations and empires have taken over, conquered other territories. Whether they hold for decades or centuries, human traffic is active. Soldiers stay and have local brides, families migrate and integrated with the locals. Genetics is ever evolving.

 

We are a living part of this world. We are humans.


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#38 Shitbot

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 12:05

 

 

Balsay's skin is a pale yellow that gets slightly darker, in the dank lighting of Friar's Keep. It may not be as pale as, say, Faith, but he's clearly white

Both his skin color and his facial features preclude him from being White. Oh, and if using your eyes weren't enough - Bachim is an Indonesian name. Which would roughly correspond to the dark yellow/light brown color of his face. And no, him being a member of the fantasy culture does not preclude him having a real-world archetype/analogue.

 

 

 

Regarding Magnus, I'd actually argue that that makes him the responsible parent. Saga is a baby running around loose who could easily get hurt. He's being a good parent by making sure his child isn't running around putting her fingers in electric sockets

Anyone who actually raised children will tell you - keeping the child in the crib all the time is not right, nor is there anything wrong with opening the door and letting the child inside the room for a few minutes. Magnus is clearly portrayed as an overprotective and stifling influence on his daughter, made explicitly clear in in the second interlude. Another example of the game trying to uphold the SJW cliche of White male = threat.

 

 

 

I did color swabs and Kian appears to actually be lighter in skin tone than Vamon. I'm not kidding. Kian's darkest shadow is #381c10, while Vamon's darkest is #210e04

Color swabs on cherrypicked screenshots with unequal lighting conditions mean nothing. Kian is visibly darker than Vamon, and Kian has noticeable Middle Eastern/North African facial features (lips, nose, eye slits, etc), whereas Vamon is a white guy with a light tan.



#39 Luelle

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 13:34

This topic is a train wreck...



#40 Bruno

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 13:36

You know, you may be onto something. I liked your analysis and I thought I would look into it further to try and identify any other patterns. And the result was interesting.
 
For instance, let's consider hair colour. All of the Good Guys in this story have black (or dark brown) hair! Zoë, April, Kian, Cortez - hell, even Crow! But look at the bad guys: Sister Sahya is blonde! So is Samantha Gilmore! Zelenka has light brown hair, almost blondish. Roper Klacks looks blonde. Vamon is dark-haired, granted, but he had sex once with a goat-herder from the Purple Mountains (*), so there.
 
Another interesting point is that ALL of the bad guys names start with consonants (Vamon, Sahya, Hami, Falk Friedman, Brian Westhouse, Gilmore, Peats, Gordon Holloway...). The only characters with names starting with vowels are in the good guys list - April, Alvane, Utana, Adrian (and we know Zoë was meant to be called Alexandra, before their parents settled with Zoë(*) ). Coincidence? I think not.
 
Finally, there is a very very curious pattern when you start analysing the colour of each person's clothes, but I will leave that one for you all to look into, it's not that hard to find and it really tells much about those color-gramma-pilus bigots at RTG!!
 
 
(*) I have made these ones up, but I can only assume that is fair game on this type of analysis

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