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Racial representation in Dreamfall Chapters and the rest of the series


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#1 Shitbot

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 09:51

Out of the three protagonists, one is a Hispanic-Chinese straight female, the other is a Brown gay male, and the presumed third (assuming Hannah is Saga/April) is a White lesbian female...
 
Whereas, all the villain/sinister characters are White, and either explicitly heterosexual or orientation undisclosed.
 
Vamon and Sahya are technically Azadi like Kian, but for some reason the Kian is Brown, whereas evil conspirators are chalk-White. The pedoazadi is also White-skinned. Contrast with the kind Mother Utana who has Brown skin. I guess the White-looking General Hami is a sympathetic character, but he's still an antagonist to Kian, and it's arguable if he can be described as good. 
 
Falk Friedman is the creepiest character in the game, and while he's been seen helping Zoe, we have no idea who he works for or what his goals are. He's definitely sinister-looking, is seen intimidating/threatening people and spying on Zoe's private life. Needless to say, ultra-White.
 
Zoe's psychologist who leaks all information about her to Falk is also White.
 
Honor Hitleriss is a caricature on Adolf Hitler that's missing a mustache.
 
Brtian Westhouse and that Gilmore madam haven't made an appearance yet, but they were both White in Dreamfall. The founder of WatiCorp was also a White guy/hideous mutant.
 
The main villains of TLJ were albino White guy Gordon Halloway and the evil green dragon who just happened to take on the appearance of an old White guy. Contrast with the good guardian Adrian (Southern European) and the good red dragon Cortez (Latino). True, Gordon became good in the end, but he was a creepy villain for 99% of the game, and it's very debatable if he's actually good now (how does he not notice the Dream-shenanigans in Europolis and Marcuria?)
 
The abrasive ship captain in TLJ who kicked April off his ship to die in the storm was White-looking. The pirate captain who sacrificed himself to save Kian was Brown-looking.
 
Am I missing someone? Oh yes, Roper Clacks is also White. Lol.
 
 
Basically, the absolute majority of  negative characters in the series are White, the vast majority of them being White men.
 
Whereas, their positive counter-parts are very likely to be of a different race (Southern-Europeans are perceived as non-White by the target mentality of this series, which I personally don't agree with, but it's their perception that matters, not mine).
 
 
 
I'm sure this is all just a tremendous coincidence. After all, where in the course of three games would Ragnar have the time or opportunity to introduce a positive White male character, or a negative non-White character??
 
 


#2 ShardofTruth

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 10:18

Off the top of my head (and for what it's worth): Damien was a positive white guy and the Twins were negative non-white characters.

 

I don't think the games have any representation issues whatsoever.


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#3 Sebsghost

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 10:43

That's not totally true, though. Magnus is a white, heterosexual male and he's shown to be a hardworking, caring father to Saga. April Ryan was a white, heterosexual and she was the protagonist for the first game and a playable character in the second. Damian Cavanaugh in Dreamfall was a white good guy who helped Zoe infiltrate WATIcorp (and had romantic feelingss for her). Balsay Bachim was white and he took his own life just to save Kian. Ulvic is white and a rebel sympathizer. Brynn was white and, while being impulsive, was portrayed as a good guy. Benrime and her nephew Jakai are both white and are obvious allies to the rebel cause. Blind Bob is a white good guy, and a rebel. Mister London is of Chinese descent (and so are many of his goons) and he is obviously a really bad guy. Helena Chang was an obvious bad guy, evil enough to put her own daughter into a coma and basically screwed over her other daughter. The Twins are Chinese and are obvious servants of Peats, and thus bad guys. Marcus Crozier's ethnicity isn't quite clear, but he certianly looks to be nonwhite, and he's depicted as an addict and general ne'er-do-well. Many of the Azadi soldiers appear to be just as dark as Kian and yet they are clearly the enemy in DFC.

 

Then there's Reza. He's a non-white male who's portrayed in...not the best light. He might not be a mustache twirling villain but a lot of people think he's a jerk, wanted him to break up with Zoe, and just generally believe him to be up to no good. So, at the very least, he's portrayed as a flawed character. Same with Cortez...at the very least, he is portrayed as having dubious motives. We don't know if he's a good guy or a bad guy.

 

Also we don't know if Saga is Hanna, that's only a theory at this point. We also don't know if Falk and Zelenka are good guys or bad guys, but it seems like the bad guy buildup for Falk was meant for that plot twist of him being a good guy and Zelenka, at the very least, seems troubled for releasing information about his patient. So they're not 100% bad guys, for sure.


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#4 Vainamoinen

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 10:58

Basically, the absolute majority of  negative characters in the series are White, the vast majority of them being White men.


The Azadi aren't particularly 'caucasian', though depiction of skin color varies.
Chapters' Mr. London certainly isn't white.
Chapters' Lea Umińskaa, notably female and social democrat, has turned out to lead the same corrupt party as just about everyone else.
Dreamfall's corporate devil incarnate was white, yet not male.
The central ruthless, mind controlled killers in Dreamfall were two asian women.
The bastard willing to kill off her own children in Dreamfall, one by one, was neither caucasian nor male.
 

I'd understand if a game made predominantly by white men featured mainly white male villains. But, no, it's not happening here.

And, no, Hanna is not Sagapril. :)


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#5 Silvirish4ever

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 11:07

... and the presumed third (assuming Hannah is Saga/April) is a White lesbian female...

 
How long have I been out??? o.O
 
Anyway, I gotta say, there is always going to be a bigger number of a particular "race", or people of a certain sexual orientation, or whatever you wanna call it - stories are not written with calculators. And for a story to work there must be "good guys" and "bad guys", so you do the math.
 
The Stark part of this game is set in middle/eastern Europe, and even considering that, the amount of cultural diversity is just amazing. The Arcadian part is full of all sorts of humans and magicals of different origins. In both cases, male and female characters are portrayed as equally capable and quirky.
 
I don't know if what you are trying to say is that you sense a certain discrimination in this game, but if that's what you mean, I am seriously clueless about what exactly makes you think so. Like, what else would you like it to have in order to be more "equal"?

 

If I missed your point entirely, I apologize in advance.


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#6 Shitbot

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 12:22

 

 

Magnus is a white, heterosexual male and he's shown to be a hardworking, caring father to Saga

Actually, a lot of people sensed a vague threatening vibe from Magnus. Consider this: when you play as Saga in the first interlude, you have to avoid Magnus, however Etta opens the door for her. So White male Magnus is an obstacle, and Green (lol) female Etta is a helper. Also, there's a lot of tension between Saga and Magnus in the second interlude, it starts with Magnus yelling at Saga to come to the kitchen, and Saga is clearly tired of him as well.

 

 

 

April Ryan was a white, heterosexual and she was the protagonist for the first game and a playable character in the second

She's a female, though, and she's a lesbian now. Actually, you just reminded me - who are the four people closest to April in the beginning of the game? Emma (a female), Charlie (a Black male), Fiona and her girlfriend - lesbian females. Who's the one evil sleazeball that ends up ratting April out to the corporate overlords? Zac, a white male.

 

 

 

 

Damian Cavanaugh in Dreamfall was a white good guy who helped Zoe infiltrate WATIcorp (and had romantic feelingss for her)

That's true, but he was such a throwaway character with very little screen time.

 

 

 

 

Balsay Bachim was white

http://vignette4.wik...=20081226234557

 

 

I'm not going over every throwaway tertiary character, it's clear that the main/secondary characters follow the usual SJW line of token minorities vs evil cishet white males.



#7 JACKofDiam0nDs

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 12:56

 

 He's definitely sinister-looking

 

 well he is german. its not his fault


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#8 Silvirish4ever

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 13:47

 well he is german. its not his fault

 

He is German and he says "Fräulein"? Definitely suspicious.


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#9 Vainamoinen

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 14:02

Certainly. My father was officially the last person on earth to say "Fräulein" without the intent of mockery.
 
As to the rest... April was hetero, it's too early to judge what sexuality Saga prefers and her relationship with Magnus ist just about what happens when your father is the only person in existence for you.
 
Arguing that the villains are predominantly white/male is one thing, but arguing that the good guys aren't, huh, that's even more difficult.
 
Gordon Halloway, white male, turned out pretty good at the end. He's holding the Balance together for more than a decade now.
The former Guardian Adrian, white male. Sacrificed his life for the Balance.
Horatio Nebevay, white male. April seems to like him at least. Well, until she sinks his ship.
Minstrum Tobias Grensret, one of the most beloved characters of the series, white male (not too sure though. It IS pretty dark in there).
Minstrum Yerin though, white male. Much more willingly helpful to April than most of the diversity crew to Zoë in Chapters!
Reza Temiz, white male. Mighty, bold underground international journalist with far reaching connections unknown to his naive former girlfriend.
Damien Cavanaugh, white male. Concocted, entirely on his own, a plan to bring down WatiCorp, using Zoë as his executing maid.
Burns Flipper, central and most memorable, white male. Invaluable companion to April, his treachery notwithstanding.
Captain Balsay Bachim, white male. Sacrificed himself to get Kian out of prison.
Gabriel Castillo, white male. Would give his arms, legs and head for his daughter.
Brynn, very white male. Sacrificed himself for the rebel cause and for April Ryan in particular.
[Admiral] Blind Bob, beloved, white and male. Joined the rebels to save the magicals.
 
Falk Friedman has pulled the long awaited Terminator 2 already. I consider him the coolest male character in Chapters.
And Roman Zelenka may also have a chance to redeem himself, now that it's clear that he didn't quite work for WatiCorp.

 

We'll see about Brian Westhouse as well. In any case, he is a very positive character in The Longest Journey, and I wouldn't welcome if he's retconned into having been evil all along.
 
These are not tertiary characters. They're as central to the experience as the more diverse crew.

 

 

it's clear that the main/secondary characters follow the usual SJW line of token minorities vs evil cishet white males.


Herewith proven wrong, and even if they were, we have more than enough examples to the contrary in fiction these last decades... we can pour a bit more into that other scale pan, no problem.

Also, I ask you once more to not use the term "SJW". It bears no meaning besides the insult.


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#10 agirlnamedbob

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 14:47

Yeah. I absolutely don't buy into this notion that Magnus is somehow sinister. I haven't gotten that vibe at all. And I don't think you can really judge a character based on a fan theory, particularly before the game is even complete.

 

Same goes for the potential April/Saga/Hanna thing. Yeah, that's becoming a popular fan theory, but it is FAR from confirmed. I'm certainly not on that train yet. And there are just as many people who believe that Saga is Anna or someone else entirely, from what I've seen.

 

Falk is suspicious, yes, but I really don't buy that he's a "bad" guy. He may not quite be a "good" guy, but that's a different sort of deal. I feel the same way about Zelenka. Are there bad parts of their characters? Certainly. But that makes them interesting and complex, not clear cut and dry villains. And they're two of my favorite new characters.

 

We honestly have precious few clear villains in Chapters. I don't see Hami as a villain (yet). Vamon and Sahya are probably about the closest thing we have to that in Arcadia, and I wouldn't be surprised if there turns out to be a bit more to that before the end. But who knows. Mr. London is a pretty clear villain in Propast, I suppose, but we don't know all that much about him yet. We may still find out more. Also, not white.  

 

I'm also sort of amused by this strange situation where Zoe is too white for the people who want her to be more clearly Chinese / Hispanic, and too not-white for people who are coming from the other direction. Kian's sort of had a similar situation. I feel like his not-white status has always been pretty clear, but that didn't stop people from claiming that in the newest key art, he appeared to have changed from white to another race. 

 

I guess my point there is that what you see is going to be shaped by what you're bringing to the table and the lens through which you choose to look at things. This is true for any piece of media.


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#11 Vainamoinen

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 15:17

I'm also sort of amused by this strange situation where Zoe is too white for the people who want her to be more clearly Chinese / Hispanic, and too not-white for people who are coming from the other direction. Kian's sort of had a similar situation. I feel like his not-white status has always been pretty clear, but that didn't stop people from claiming that in the newest key art, he appeared to have changed from white to another race.


I'll have to dig out that German state financed paper on TLJ... the one in which they suggest that TLJ's ending is somewhat misogynist because April is 'incapable' as a Guardian and only two men can and will actually do the job...

...it's all about interpretation. :P


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#12 Sebsghost

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 17:56

Shitbot -

 

Uh...that's entirely your interpretation and plenty of people didn't get that vibe from Magnus. To me he sounded like a tired single parent, and Saga seemed like she was bored a little lonely. I don't think you can compare a dad asking his daughter to do chores with, say, putting his child in a coma like another character did.

 

You keep saying April is a lesbian but there's no evidence on that theory. So for all intents and purposes, we know that April Ryan was a white, heterosexual. And yeah, she's a girl with mostly girl friends, which is pretty typical actually... It's also worth noting that Zack, although he did betray April, seemed genuinely regretful for what he did. He was a jackass, but he wasn't a villain. And there were plenty of white men, such as Yerin, Brian Westhouse, and the mapmaker who were perfectly willing to help out April on her journey.

 

Damian Cavanaugh was hardly a minor character in Dreamfall. Without him, again, Zoe would not have been able to infiltrate WATIcorp and she wouldn't have even had a worm to inject into Eingana. Not to mention, he got just as much, if not more, screen time than Olivia and Reza so I don't think he should be so easily discounted.

 

Balsay Bacchim was designed to be white - http://41.media.tumb...k1weo1_1280.jpg - The lighting in that picture makes him appear darker but he's still very much Caucasian. 

 

Also the characters I mentioned were hardly 'throwaway' characters - they've all had importance to the plot so far. It's not like I'm listing random characters like the spice seller or something. I mean just as one example, Ulvic has had loads of screen time, I think even more than major rebels like Shepard. So I really don't see how you could discount those characters.

 

To be honest, you just sound dissatisfied that we don't have a white heterosexual male as a protagonist. TLJ has been quite a diverse universe and there have been plenty of heroes and villains of varying races, sexual orientation, and genders.



#13 Shitbot

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 18:56

 Vainamoinen, are you intentionally ignoring the majority of my OP, or did you not read it? Half the things you say are verifiably not true, and already described above.

 
Gordon Halloway, white male, turned out pretty good at the end. He's holding the Balance together for more than a decade now.

True, Gordon became good in the end, but he was a creepy villain for 99% of the game, and it's very debatable if he's actually good now. How does he not notice the Dream-shenanigans in Europolis and Marcuria? 

 
The former Guardian Adrian, white male. Sacrificed his life for the Balance.
Contrast with the good guardian Adrian (Southern European) (Southern-Europeans are perceived as non-White by the target mentality of this series, which I personally don't agree with, but it's their perception that matters, not mine).
 
Horatio Nebevay, white male. April seems to like him at least. Well, until she sinks his ship.
The abrasive ship captain in TLJ who kicked April off his ship to die in the storm was White-looking.
 
Minstrum Tobias Grensret, one of the most beloved characters of the series, white male (not too sure though. It IS pretty dark in there). 
qobpuf.jpg
 
Vestrum Tobias has very obvious dark skin and lighting has nothing to do with it. People don't magically become White just because you want to win an argument.
 
Reza Temiz, white male. Mighty, bold underground international journalist with far reaching connections unknown to his naive former girlfriend.
Reza Temiz is not White. Not the Germanic European kind of White, anyway. 
 

 

Captain Balsay Bachim, white male.

29niagj.jpg

 
Balsay Bachim has very obvious dark skin. People don't magically become White just because you want to win an argument.
 
 

Minstrum Yerin though, white male. Much more willingly helpful to April than most of the diversity crew to Zoë in Chapters!
Damien Cavanaugh, white male. Concocted, entirely on his own, a plan to bring down WatiCorp, using Zoë as his executing maid.
Burns Flipper, central and most memorable, white male. Invaluable companion to April, his treachery notwithstanding.
 

 

You can have these tertiary non-recurring characters. You cannot, however, put them on the same level as all the series' major villains and pretend you've made a point.

 

 

Just to make it absolutely clear, by "White" I am referring to the Northern European Germanic-Nordic-Slavic kind of White, as in the colloquial American usage. Technically, the term is much wider and can encompass all of Europe and Western Asia, but it's the Germanic element that is usually vilified and dismissed by SJW culture wars. And no, I'm not Germanic-Nordic-Slavic myself.

 

 

 

To be honest, you just sound dissatisfied that we don't have a white heterosexual male as a protagonist

Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

 

 

Uh...that's entirely your interpretation and plenty of people didn't get that vibe from Magnus

It's not my interpretation. The game portrays Magnus as an obstacle that needs to be avoided, and Etta as someone who helps Saga reach her goal.



#14 Roxie

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 19:01

I do thing RTG has gone above and beyond in pushing the limits of diversity in games.

 

3 of the 4 playable characters are female (April, Saga, Kian, Zoe).

Two of the playable characters are people of color (Kian, Zoe)

 

With respect to NPCs with agency (those who are not simply short term information sources).

A significant number of women

A significant number are people of color (I'm including hispanic folk, as they're unfortunately treated as second class in the US)

There are a few who are LGBT

 

As far as NPCs who don't show/haven't yet shown significant agency, yet are named and are part of the story.  There are a few who are LGBT.  A number are people of color.  A number are women.  One is on the autistic spectrum.

 

There are women in leadership positions.

 

Women actually talk to women about something other than men (believe it or not, this happens in our world).

 

Funny.  Stark actually seems more progressive than Arcadia with respect to racial and religious tolerance.


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#15 Tamahome

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 19:59

Just a reminder, April is at very best Bi. She seemed interested in boys in TLJ, and she and Likho had a thing. Just dropping by, I see this thread is gonna derail into a fight. I don't see the point arguing over arbitrary levels of melanin in someone's skin, what I care about is the content of one's character. Never even noticed what OP pointed out, it's cool I guess? 



#16 cerb998

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 20:40

 

(Southern-Europeans are perceived as non-White by the target mentality of this series, which I personally don't agree with, but it's their perception that matters, not mine).

Reza Temiz is not White. Not the Germanic European kind of White, anyway.

 

It's ok everyone, I've found where the wiring has gone wrong. We can let this topic die now.



#17 Vainamoinen

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 20:57

People don't magically become White just because you want to win an argument.

 
 
chalkvamon.png
 
 
Vamon is darker skinned than Reza, peace out.
 
In the same vein, you can't reinterpret characters just to make your point. You're trying extremely hard to vilify white male characters here, which is strange to witness. Also, the splitting hairs with the off-white. You wanted positive white males, they are there, topic exhausted.
 
I will also not accept that you dismiss the significance of all the male white characters that disprove your point. The Flipper and Damien have as of yet far more relevant text than e.g. Hami or the Azadi officer. What April and Zoë tried to achieve in their respective games would have turned out a pile of burning rubbish without these two white men.
 
Tobias is dark skinned, all right! But you clearly misremember Horatio. What you repeated about him twice now is incorrect.
 
Lastly, we were engaged in a discussion of racial representation. Somehow however, the discussion isn't supposed to include positive white skinned characters if they're female. Now that's just stupid. We've had three very white, very positive protagonists up to now. Very positive way to look at the caucasian race, thank you very much. Thread closed.
 
I kindly ask you a third and final time not to use the term SJW. It devalues your arguments faster than "April is clearly black" would.
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#18 Shitbot

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 21:09

 

Put him in a screenshot right next to Sister Sahya... it's even more obvious. I'm sorry. Vamon is darker skinned than Reza, peace out.

Vamon is darker than Sahya, but lighter than Kian, the Azadi Empress, mother Putana, or just about any random Azadi. His facial features and blue eyes leave little doubt as to his racial equivalent in the real world. Also, you've chosen to "forget" about the Azadi pedomolester, who just happened to be chalk-white in the most literal sense.

 

In the same vein, you can't reinterpret characters just to make your point

 

The way you falsesly called Tobias, Balsay and Reza white? True, you absolutely cannot do that.

 

You're trying extremely hard to vilify white male characters here

 

Oh, I was not aware I was the author of TLJ, Dreamfall and Dreamfall Chapters. Does that mean I can speak Norwegian now?

 

The Flipper and Damien have as of yet far more relevant text than e.g. Hami or the Azadi officer

 

Flipper and Damien are little more than walking info-dumps. You can replace both with April/Zoe taking a cyber-hacking course, and doing everything on their own. Hami and the Azadi officer actually have a role to play in the plot, that amounts to more than "this is what happened and this is where you stick a thing in a thing to make the plot go forward".

 

 

But you clearly misremember Horatio. What you repeated about him twice is incorrect.

It is absolutely correct.

 

When the White Dragon founders on the reef and sinks, Nebevay leads the evacuation onto the magical life-raft, but deliberately leaves April clinging to the wreckage. According to Crow, his final words were " 'Aye, let the wench drown!'...or something, I could be mistaken."
 
 
 

 

I kindly ask you a third and final time not to use the term SJW.

I do not censor my speech or commit to arbitrary taboos on the whims of any SJW shitlord or MRA neckbeard, for that matter. Feel free to keep threatening my freedom of speech, though.



#19 Pawlo_86

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 21:11

Chapters are anti-racial. Play Book Two and Kian-Bip dialogue.

#20 Vainamoinen

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 21:18

I do not censor my speech or commit to arbitrary taboos on the whims of any SJW shitlord or MRA neckbeard, for that matter. Feel free to keep threatening my freedom of speech, though.


I'm out.

Starting with the first post, it wasn't meant to be a discussion anyway.
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