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Which political party do you support after Book 2?

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Poll: Which political party do you support after Book 2? (59 member(s) have cast votes)

Which political party do you support after Book 2

  1. European Dawn (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Alliance of European Democrats for Freedom and Liberty (3 votes [5.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.08%

  3. Unity (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. Manifesto (Marxists) (22 votes [37.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.29%

  5. None (34 votes [57.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 57.63%

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#41 Tomer

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 18:05

Stormwhisper: Well... we don't really want to open a super serious debate on the matter, right? :) I feel too exhausted to reply to each of your claims, which I generally understand and relate to. I do want to share with you what I tell people who say "no party represents them/everyone's corrupted/bla bla": Go get yourself involved in a party then! Or start a new one! Who's stopping you from gaining political power, from helping to fight corruption. Impossible? One of my best friends, Stav Shaffir, became a super popular parlament member in Israel, and the youngest to have ever been elected, after being virtually unknown about 4 years ago. She gained her political power in the centers of massive protests of recent years, and did so only with her persuasive power, sharp intelligence, and by giving people hope. You don't want to spend your life with politics and sacrifice all your free time for this cause? Legitimate! But don't tell me everyone's corrupted, that the system's a lie, that nothing can change. Reality disproves this on a daily basis, and a 2 minutes youtube video does not contradict massive amounts of texts written on the subject, neither does it rewrite history.  Bah. Sorry for the slight aggressiveness. Sad day for me, and if there's anything I can't tolerate very well today, it's apathy. 

 

Ok. Yeah. Dreamfall.


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#42 Tomer

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 18:07

Hasn't Simferopolis voted itself into a whole other country just a year ago?

 

Of course the political situation in Europolis is nowhere near as mutable, but so long as we're talking in general.

 

Oh, by the way, by the looks of it, Democracy is dead in Europolis. This is the time to march, I'd say. This is not the case in most "western-world" countries.


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#43 Stormwhisper

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 18:14

Thanks Tomer, I just want to say that I don't mean there is no hope, just that I by myself can understand those people we described, at least from this point of view, in this country, as previously said I'm ignorant about other countries, so I really don't know more than what you've siad about your friend, but it's still a concrete tryout, and an expression of hope which is not lost at all, so I just wanted to thank you.

 

So Dreamfall...what was it there to drink in the Sonnenshein plaza that sounded so delightful for Zoe? :)


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#44 Mr Moo

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 18:37

OK, the setting in DFC. I seem to recall that also the democrats were involved in this bribe scandal, or am I mistaken? :huh:

 

Anyway, when two of the three (or all three) major political parties are caught in a massive bribe scandal right before the election, things can't continue like nothing has happened. Not even in DFC.

 

I don't know about the court system in Europolis, but I wouldn't be surprised if Wati is also heavily involved there. No matter what, clearing the involved candidates and parties before the election just won't happen. Even a fake investigation and trial isn't done in a day. The most commonly seen outcome would me a military coup, but does Europolis even have non-Wati controlled military forces? I think EYE took over both police and military?

 

The other common outcome is revolution/civil war. The only peaceful way would be to call off the elections, but even that won't work if the sitting democratic party also is involved. And there aren't anyone left then, except for the marxists, who probably aren't even enough people to rule by themselves. Europolis is basically screwed, no matter what. This is a fast ticking time bomb.

 

Oh yeah, I would vote if there were an election, but I doubt there will be now.


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#45 inspector

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 18:50

OK, the setting in DFC. I seem to recall that also the democrats were involved in this bribe scandal, or am I mistaken? :huh:

 

Anyway, when two of the three (or all three) major political parties are caught in a massive bribe scandal right before the election, things can't continue like nothing has happened. Not even in DFC.

 

I don't know about the court system in Europolis, but I wouldn't be surprised if Wati is also heavily involved there. No matter what, clearing the involved candidates and parties before the election just won't happen. Even a fake investigation and trial isn't done in a day. The most commonly seen outcome would me a military coup, but does Europolis even have non-Wati controlled military forces? I think EYE took over both police and military?

 

The other common outcome is revolution/civil war. The only peaceful way would be to call off the elections, but even that won't work if the sitting democratic party also is involved. And there aren't anyone left then, except for the marxists, who probably aren't even enough people to rule by themselves. Europolis is basically screwed, no matter what. This is a fast ticking time bomb.

 

Oh yeah, I would vote if there were an election, but I doubt there will be now.

 

 

I agree that a military coup or a revolution is possible due to the blurry political arena. And maybe some group actually wants this.



#46 Stormwhisper

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 21:34

@Moohouse: checked just today and as far as the data is concerned the democrats are not involved in WATIcorp Conspiracy (so I've been mistaken about it a few pages ago). But being the actual sitting party who isn't as far as we know doing well, having the outcome to a probable non-re-election they are in a similar position as Manifesto: "maybe not enough Worth bribing" by WATIcorp, and even if the other two major parties got discredited by the new the Data-Key is all about, it looks to me as they would most certainly collaborate with the major Corporation who is directly in control of the Dream-Machine which follows as being indirectly in control of the populace, resulting in a compromise that still outcomes in a winning solution by WATIcorp.

 

As I said before nothing really excludes the fact that the Democrats could be already involved with WATIcorp.

 

Being this the situation I'm actually more keen to a Marxist vote, but would wait for the outcome of investigations about the Data-Key, as we don't really know how much and what is really made up and what for, if these informations remain still the same untill election day I would vote Manifesto.

 

I agree that in such a situation a revolution should be a most probable outcome, not considering the fact that the populace is being anesthethised by Dreamtime, being that the case nothing really stands in between a military coup, and as we see the evolution of Propast from Book I (which should already be allarming, but is in someway coherent to what we are used to in the previous installments  of the Saga in Casablanca and Newport, maybe at the time it seemed more blurry than we can see now) to Book II, some preparations are already being made in that sense, so it really seems to me as some Group is really behind such a solution, and seeing as in most cases it is WATIcorp to have started such a Win-Win Strategy I wouldn't be surprised if also this outcome would be part of the plan as a possible outcome...


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#47 Idinyphe

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 21:56

I think there has never been an actual communism anywhere on the planet. It was always a twisted, abused version of that idea.

 

Only super-advanced civilisations can have a working version of communism. Think of StarTrek - society there is at least partially similar to communism. You need an unlimited supply of energy, ability to give everyone anything he/she needs (replicators), very good information exchange system (internet) and you are all set.

If countries were divided into a large number of city-states with the country itself influencing only large-scale problems, it should work really well. I am a big fan of de-centralization. You cannot rule the world from one place. But on the bottom of the chain, something like communism (the true one) would make sense.

 

The point is that what you call "communism" the "Star Trek" way is installing itself as a result of progress.

 

If you ask me then a civilisation depends on energie, matter, method and information. If through method and information matter and energie are equal (or almost equal) and transferable into each other then there is no way to avoid "communism"

 

But there has to be no "revolution", nobody forced, nobody killed and nobody dispossessed for that. At the moment we are learning (the hard way) that information, if it is given away, can be shared and copied without big effort.

 

That does not fit in our 15000 year old concept of possession. So we try to make laws against the law of the universe. It may take time... we will not see it at our lifetime, but those laws will fall.

 

You can imagine the long path we still have to go.


Unfortunately that's the story of revenge. It's messy. Never really works out the way you want it to.


#48 Mr Moo

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 22:49

@Moohouse: checked just today and as far as the data is concerned the democrats are not involved in WATIcorp Conspiracy [...]

As I said before nothing really excludes the fact that the Democrats could be already involved with WATIcorp.


It seems Wati would gain even more control after the election with the new agreement, but you're right, it doesn't really in any way clear the democrats from suspicion. It would be strange if this full on corporate coup wasn't already in a phase 1 leading up to this new phase. Maybe the democrats managed to win without Wati support, while Uminska and Wolf were fully depending on the Wati contributions to have a chance at toppling the sitting party?
 

Being this the situation I'm actually more keen to a Marxist vote, but would wait for the outcome of investigations about the Data-Key, as we don't really know how much and what is really made up and what for, if these informations remain still the same untill election day I would vote Manifesto.
 
I agree that in such a situation a revolution should be a most probable outcome, not considering the fact that the populace is being anesthethised by Dreamtime, being that the case nothing really stands in between a military coup, and as we see the evolution of Propast from Book I (which should already be allarming, but is in someway coherent to what we are used to in the previous installments  of the Saga in Casablanca and Newport, maybe at the time it seemed more blurry than we can see now) to Book II, some preparations are already being made in that sense, so it really seems to me as some Group is really behind such a solution, and seeing as in most cases it is WATIcorp to have started such a Win-Win Strategy I wouldn't be surprised if also this outcome would be part of the plan as a possible outcome...

 

There are reasons why all the armor and soldiers rolled in already. They knew the data was out there, and there's always a remote chance that somehow the truth will come out, so they had good reasons to prepare for a revolution not yet started. <_<

 

The Prophet, Wati and Vamon have all basically already won. The only ones who seems able to stop this mess would be our dear Zoe, Kian and possibly also Saga. :wub:


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#49 Stormwhisper

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 22:51

If we spread the word they won't be alone! :wub:


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#50 Dolmari Gamble

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 16:07

So many of y'all and just one me. Okay.

In Switzerland, quite many things are decided by public votes. Just sayin'.

In Switzerland it's called "direct democracy". Just sayin'.

You can't base your entire view on democracy on the weakness exposed in a particular attempted implementation in one particular video. Especially not when the video is as poor as the one you linked to. It didn't say anything about how the different opinions whose impact it measured were distributed in the population, for instance. In fact it didn't go into the issue at all, it just said that there was a study once and then made wild assertions. 

Okay. (Here's the article the video was based upon. It was linked in the description of the said video. Yay for attention) And I'm not judging spherical democracy in vacuum, just particular implementations. Sweden and Israel apparently have it better theт US. Go figure.

 I came to Israel from Berlin (where I currently live) only to vote against him, but we, unfortunately, failed.

Case in point. Your vote didn't matter.

 Reality disproves this on a daily basis, and a 2 minutes youtube video does not contradict massive amounts of texts written on the subject, neither does it rewrite history.  Bah. Sorry for the slight aggressiveness. Sad day for me, and if there's anything I can't tolerate very well today, it's apathy.

For such high-brow academics as yourself I've linked a hopefully more credible article above.

Oh, by the way, by the looks of it, Democracy is dead in Europolis. This is the time to march, I'd say. This is not the case in most "western-world" countries.

So you do admit that there can be a situation when voting is useless? Good. It also happen to be the case in my country. Oh well.

Hasn't Simferopolis voted itself into a whole other country just a year ago?

No. It was a cover-up vote which is not recognized internationally and moreover things went increasingly shittier since.

 

I have to admit that in some instances even representational democracy does work as long as there is something resembling a consensus within society and a sufficient economic stability. Well, we'll live and see, eh?

On this optimistic note I have to stop this discussion. Thanks everyone.

 

On a Dreamfall side of thing - who gave Baruti the data? Could it be Marxists?


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#51 delamer

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 16:50

So many of y'all and just one me. Okay.

On a Dreamfall side of thing - who gave Baruti the data? Could it be Marxists?

I doubt it. 

From a conversation with Baruti we know:
- The initiator of the investigation was Baruti himself
- The investigation revealed unexpected results
- Baruti's contact in Bokamba-Mercer was scared because of it.
Does not look like something originally scheduled.
I bet contact was member of Unity, or supporter like Zoe.

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#52 khh

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 16:54

On a Dreamfall side of thing - who gave Baruti the data? Could it be Marxists?

Baruti has a contact in Bokamba-Mercer though his family. In Book One he talks about how he's using them investigate European Dawn, but his contact finds more than either he or Baruti expected.


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#53 Dolmari Gamble

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 16:58

Baruti has a contact in Bokamba-Mercer though his family. In Book One he talks about how he's using them investigate European Dawn, but his contact finds more than either he or Baruti expected.

You'd think that experienced politicians would know how to conceal incriminating evidence. In place when you can't just stumble upon it. But, well, plot reasons. Maybe Reza will end up locked in the cargo container for life. Oh, that would be marvelous.


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#54 delamer

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 17:04

But, well, plot reasons. Maybe Reza will end up locked in the cargo container for life. Oh, that would be marvelous.

Or he will show himself as a another spy, like our doctor.



#55 Stormwhisper

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 17:17

Reza being a spy like Zelenka could make sense to have a backup door by having Always someone related to Zoe watching over her from a privileged perspective of a confident, so if a player trusts Reza but not Zelenka the "ones behind them" would gather information, same outcome in not trusting Reza but Zelenka (at least untill now) and if the player brings Zoe to distrust them both...well who knows who else could be involved.

 

Having not done so myself, but seeing s Zoe can somewhat flirt with Zelenka, and having him reminding me a little of Damien (just from the looks, just a little) I think there could be an alternative relationship for Zoe with him that goes in a parallel way of the Reza one, with little diference of the outcome, but that's just a wild theory, so I won't let my thoughts run that long.

 

Also in the last scene I noticed Sully saying that all parties but the Marxists were involed in WATI's affair, so this includes again the Democrats as for "sure" as Unity and European Dawn, even if it wasn't initially so portrayed by the original Data-Key we briefly saw through with Mira...



#56 Tomer

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 18:40

Case in point. Your vote didn't matter.

 

Right... only the votes of the other camp... 

 

Whatever.  :mellow:



#57 Z43

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 18:54

Or he will show himself as a another spy, like our doctor.

My Walking Dead-honed plot sense seems to be tingling towards this idea being possible.

 

Zoe has a choice to hand the information over to the Hand (which mysteriously feeds instead of biting like it used to) or have it die with Baruti. This implies great consequences; even if Uminska wins either way, the public's attitude would have to differ a lot. So, to avoid the need to design two separate sets of conversations, the data has to be lost with either choice.

 

That said, we also have a choice of breaking up with Reza or not in Book 1, which means he has to be gone in Book 3 in both cases. This could be an alternate explanation for his disappearance, but...

I haven't done a playthrough where I stay with Reza, but destroy the data; what happens in that case, does he leave for another reason or actually stay?


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#58 magritte

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 19:09

The info doesn't die with Baruti--at least not if Zoe has an opportunity to go back to Propast and recover it.  He made a copy of it and hid it.



#59 delamer

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 19:11

I haven't done a playthrough where I stay with Reza, but destroy the data; what happens in that case, does he leave for another reason or actually stay?

I want to try it now. I'll be in touch next day :)



#60 msierchio

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 19:20

There are no parties, just different rhetoric for the same masters.

 

And as for the Marxists, it's actually ironic that they appear to be the only ones not on the team,

 

 

 

Not so - there are 4 parties - don't forget Dieter Gross.

 

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