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Ilusion of choice. The ending of Book Two.

Book two Nela explosion

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#61 ct2651

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 23:07

I have to say I did not play Alpha protocol (Isen't that a shooter? Not my thing to be honest...)

 

I tried to play "mass effect" but the storyline was too boring the shooter elements a pain so I stopped at the first part.

 

Alpha Protocol is a weird game... It can be a jackass shooter or complete stealth and gadgets game.

The story is as interesting as you are good at knowing what is going on and then having more information to have even more information.

The Espionnage RPG is not a bad way to describe it in fact, you are the one that have to understand how to make the most out of your espionnage tasks.

 

There is still some weird bug like 1 guard out of 30 that stop moving for no reason but beside that, I haven't encounter any other bug for now in 10 hours of play.



#62 Beyond Yonder

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 01:03

That is not the problem. You have to complete the "canon" goals all the time. But I really think Zoe should be running on her own, letting the player decide just if Zoe will yell at her or not. Or maybe make it just a non-interactive cutscene, that would be still ok by me.
The only problem is with giving players the freedom and having just one result at the same time. So either less freedom, or more results. That's all.

And it really feels like nitpicking anyway, it's not such a big deal. When a game is this good, minor flaws are ought to be overlooked. :)

 

I wasn't asking for an alternative way, I was responding to those who asked what happens if you don't try to follow Nela. It is not inherently obvious that you have to follow Nela necessarily. It just would make more sense to have an alternative cut scene if you try to run away from Nela.

 

I also don't feel like I am 'nitpicking'. I am observing and giving feedback. There are quite a few people who got confused, even on my first playthrough, it wasn't obvious to me that I had to follow Nela. I am a big fan but it wasn't the most intuitive, I still feel like in some ways it should've just been a cutscene after she gives you the box. There have been a lot of people who have gotten confused/lost at the fact Nela just disappeared. Took me a while to find her and figure out I have to follow her.


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#63 Tomer

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 01:06

Yeah, I don't think the final scene of a book being unrealistic is that minor a flaw... If a player runs away and gets "teleported" to the explosion, it kinda takes away from the immersion, and given that it's a key scene in the game... I definitely agree it would be better to have an alternative cut scene - but of course with the same consequence.

 

Alternatively, they could simply block the player from running away, one way or the other... But then they might as well make a cutscene out of it...


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#64 Happy Tree

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 01:31

How about if you run away then the explosion makes one of the talking bins hurtle through the air and bonk Zoe on the head?


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#65 Tomer

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 01:32

How about if you run away then the explosion makes one of the talking bins hurtle through the air and bonk Zoe on the head?

 

Most pragmatic solution, by far.  :P


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#66 Abnoxious

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 01:38

It's a real shame about the jumpy teleport cut scene, because I'm sure whether you ran to or from Nela and whether you called her name will still be taken into future game results consideration. 


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just a forum ghost


#67 ElDoRado1239

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 10:52

How about if you run away then the explosion makes one of the talking bins hurtle through the air and bonk Zoe on the head?

 

In that case, the chapter should have been caled "Bonking".

Zoe knew those bins are evil right from the start!


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So, wake up, Miss Castillo. Wake up and... *smell the ashes*...


#68 Idinyphe

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 11:25

Alpha Protocol is a weird game... It can be a jackass shooter or complete stealth and gadgets game.

The story is as interesting as you are good at knowing what is going on and then having more information to have even more information.

The Espionnage RPG is not a bad way to describe it in fact, you are the one that have to understand how to make the most out of your espionnage tasks.

 

There is still some weird bug like 1 guard out of 30 that stop moving for no reason but beside that, I haven't encounter any other bug for now in 10 hours of play.

 

Well... on your description it may be a game for me if there is a big stealth part. I have not the time to play many games these days but I put it on my list :)

 

Thank you for the hint.


Unfortunately that's the story of revenge. It's messy. Never really works out the way you want it to.


#69 johnny_gamble

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 11:33

It was a good thing realised in a bad way. The game should force you a bit more into running there. I don't say I know how it could have been improved, but the option to run away resulting in an out of place cutscene was really the only weak point of the game for me.

 

Yeah... I spent roughly 3 hours trying to work out the 'trick' for escaping. I've concluded that I'm either too stupid, or you can't escape.


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#70 DollyDagger

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 14:53

That's what I felt when I was moving Zoe in slo-mo. I was hoping with no expectation of it ever being rewarded. The expression of hope itself was the reward.

 

Heh I think I don't necessarily agree with you about your (enjoyably poetic) take on hope in general, but that right there is so exactly how I felt in that moment, yeah. I didn't seriously think I could save her, but it mattered to me that I was able to try, somehow..


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#71 Knossu

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 14:59

Am I the only one who ran away from Nela in the end of book two? Felt like obvious thing to do, not to run into explosion. 

Zoe's appearing next to Nela in the cut scene looked buggy and made no sense for me. :( while I was heading opposite direction.

Guess game should either prevent me from doing that or give me a choice. 

Any thoughts on this?



#72 khh

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 15:31

This has been brought up before, so I merged your thread with one of the existing ones Knossu.


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Every sorrow she can mend.
When I visit her dark realm,
Does it simply overwhelm.


#73 Happy Tree

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 17:34

I didn't mind the magical transporting cut scene effect. It happens in a lot of games. Maybe you just get used to it. I noticed this in other scenes too, to less jarring effect. I get this a lot as I am usually to be found approaching NPCs from an unusual angle. When you walk up to the table beside Shepherd the game expects you to be on a particular side. When you talk to Sully about the cops stopping him from going into the hand, again you are positioned in a particular way.

 

It comes down to how important it is to allow the player to be anywhere they want. In more expensive developments they have the time and money to let you be jumping upside down on the cottage roof as you discuss marrying the princess, if that is what you feel like doing. And people like me do feel like doing such things :-D But when it doesn't happen it doesn't really break anything for me.

 

It's like when the characters' facial expressions don't change much, or the lips don't move in sync. It's a representation of a story. My mind just fills in the missing information, like reading a graphic novel. Or even a straight up novel. If the story is carrying you along then you'll flesh it out yourself.

 

The only time this ever became that noticeable for me was when I was at the café terrasse telling Baruti about the most jaw-dropping thing he could imagine, and he's sitting there grinning. He could have done with a different expression then. But mostly I find it ok.


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#74 CosmicD

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 18:13

Well, the event seems to be local only to harm the eye headquarters and not so much the entire city. That's why you can't be anywhere in the city. If it was about blowing up the entire city you could just have the blast reach her anywhere she goes.

The problem is that Nela either IS aware she needs to kill Zoë and that means she needs her in the blast, or she is oblivious but

And somehow it's needed to somehow have a hook into Zoë's powers to "reset" te situation (thats what I think anyway).

So Nela Can't also call zoë and say hey can you be in the blast radius with me ? 

My suggestion would be :

If you're looking for a more "natural" way to get zoë to appear at the eye HQ also, maybe there's something they COULD do with baruti's story ? If he gets kill he DOES somewhat ask you to seshadri tower and then "they ended up ....somewhere", maybe that somewhere was near the eye head quarters and if you're in that area, the cutscene of nela might grab your attention.

If he doesn't die, maybe Baruti might have still send you the same message, because he's not in Propast anyways. This "ruse objective" would allow you to naturally go there, without feeling forced to follow nela. .. OR , you could decide to do it yourself. Then there's much more illusion of free will.


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#75 Riaise

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 20:28

I didn't mind the magical transporting cut scene effect. It happens in a lot of games. Maybe you just get used to it. I noticed this in other scenes too, to less jarring effect. I get this a lot as I am usually to be found approaching NPCs from an unusual angle. When you walk up to the table beside Shepherd the game expects you to be on a particular side. When you talk to Sully about the cops stopping him from going into the hand, again you are positioned in a particular way.

 

It's very jarring when you don't know what's supposed to be happening, though. As soon as "left shift to run" came up my instinct was to run away, given what had happened to Kian earlier in the game (read: I was stupid and got blown up). So when Zoë suddenly appeared just behind Nela it confused me for a moment before I realised that I was supposed to have run towards her. The other instances were different because I had already been approaching Sully or Shepherd so I was expecting Zoë or Kian to speak to them, no matter which side they ended up on.



#76 Tomer

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 20:52

What are the odds RTG could do something about this? I ran towards Nela, and it was a very powerful moment. But i can imagine how ridiculous it looks like when running away from her. I wonder whether, and how, RTG will take care of that.
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#77 Idinyphe

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 21:10

What are the odds RTG could do something about this? I ran towards Nela, and it was a very powerful moment. But i can imagine how ridiculous it looks like when running away from her. I wonder whether, and how, RTG will take care of that.

I don't know if they should at all. What do you think, should this be a high priority?

 

Options in my opinion:

 

* Make this a cutscene -> Problem solved with the smallest effort, but for those people who did play along it takes away a lot of power from the scene in my opinion.

* Make this a "decision". I think the outcome is important for the storyline so it would be the same "illusion of choice". I believe RTG could come up with 2 plausible scenes that lead to the same outcome. A lot of effort for... nothing in my opinion.

* Change the way the controller works in that scene. You can click but not run or change direction. I don't know how complicated that would be but the outcome could be disappointing.

 

I don't know... I did run into the wrong direction but for me it was not a big deal. I see in this thread other people are not satisfied with it.

 

For me it was more: oh... I messed this up. I did run into the other direction like a coward, not thinking of the possibility that I really could catch her.

 

This may be a thing of perspective. Zoë is young and fit and capable of catching sombody that is young and fit. For me at my age there is no way that I could catch Nela so I did run into the other direction.

 

From my point of view the scene is OK as it is.


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Unfortunately that's the story of revenge. It's messy. Never really works out the way you want it to.


#78 OptoNick

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 21:13

This moment wouldn't be so impressive as a cutscene, and it's enough for me to justify that design decision - it's not that bad, after all. Such emergent gameplay events always more catchy than a cutscenes, it's perfect for a cliffhanger.
Actually, I hadn't an intention to run away even in first time - it's illogical, I know, but that pounding music created right adrenalised mood. I was really hoping to stop Nela, so I got a full mouth of impressions at the end.

#79 Tomer

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 21:23

It's so funny to hear how people act differently on that moment. I didn't have even a second's thought of running away. I bet I would in real life, but in the game, I don't recall having the slightest thought of doing anything other than running after Nela (worse case scenario, you load the game, right? :) ).

 

Yeah... it's probably not the highest priority for RTG... but on the other hand, the most pragmatic solution would be to make a cutscene out of it, like you suggest, Idinyphe... Of course, a much more elegant (but costly) solution would be to have two alternative cutscenes, where she gets hit from the back by the blast wave if you choose to run away (with exactly the same consequence...)


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#80 Happy Tree

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 21:39

As soon as "left shift to run" came up my instinct was to run away

 

Ahhh, I see. I had no idea the game actually prompts you to run. I use the controller and nothing tells me to do anything. I just imagined I might like to try to move. But if there's a keyboard prompt then yeah it would feel more incongruous.


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