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#41 Tina

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 21:02

I think I'm having deja vu

 

:P


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#42 trentjaspar

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 21:05



I don't agree. :)  I agree that Steam provides DRM services to games that want them.  In fact, most Steam games use it.  However, as has already been shown, Steam can be used to obtain and play a game that has no license restrictions.  No license implies no rights to manage.  The fact that you might need Steam to simply run it does not make it DRM.

 

Steam provides launch-time license validation services to games that want them.  All Steam games still require license validation in order to download/install via Steam.  The alternative (copying files like I did this morning) probably usually doesn't work most of the time (because installers often register DLLs, etc).  But even in cases where it does work to zip/copy/install, it's still a licensed copy-- but the license is not being checked/enforced.  In other words, if I tried to give/trade/sell that copy of the game to somebody else, it would work, but would be against the terms of the license I purchased even if I deleted it from my HD and never re-installed.


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#43 Kazoo

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 21:05

Actually, in the cases I'm talking about-- games that don't use the DRM Steamworks component (not its formal name)-- Steam does not check to see if you've bought the game.  See my example above where I just zipped, copied, and unzipped.  I imagine that using the backup option for local content feature always validates that you own the game.

 

I was basing my argument on this.  But, perhaps there is some confusion on whether Steam always checks to see if you purchased the game or not?


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#44 Kazoo

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 21:16

 

Steam provides launch-time license validation services to games that want them.  All Steam games still require license validation in order to download/install via Steam.  The alternative (copying files like I did this morning) probably usually doesn't work most of the time (because installers often register DLLs, etc).  But even in cases where it does work to zip/copy/install, it's still a licensed copy-- but the license is not being checked/enforced.  In other words, if I tried to give/trade/sell that copy of the game to somebody else, it would work, but would be against the terms of the license I purchased even if I deleted it from my HD and never re-installed.

 

So you're saying that unless required by the game, Steam does not perform any DRM on the game?  That simply argues that Steam, itself, is not DRM, but implements DRM on request.

 

Having a license is not DRM.  We've always had licenses.  They were not DRM.

 

I guess I must've missed the original thread with this argument.  Sorry. :)  Since you guys seem tired of it, I'll just let it go.


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#45 Lee-m

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 21:16

With Steam, you're buying a license to play a game and you're not allowed to sell* that license. That's DRM. Copy-protection obviously helps to enforce that.


100% correct <gives you a gold star> Matters not about enforcing it.

Having a license for digital content is DRM (Digital Rights) the M is management, the management is steam. DRM. It doesn't have to be enforced.


When you get the backer DRM free dreamfall chapters, you can do what you want with it, it wont come with a binding agreement. But none of us would want to hurt the game in that way. Its trust, not license management. Hence DRM free.

#46 trentjaspar

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 21:24

I was basing my argument on this.  But, perhaps there is some confusion on whether Steam always checks to see if you purchased the game or not?

 

[Second attempt to post this.  The RTG forums are flaking out on me, citing difficulties connecting to the DB.]

 

Yeah, although I was able to zip/copy/install a couple of games outside of Steam, I fell into the trap to think that these two games didn't have "DRM," where really they just didn't have copy-protection and launch-time license validation.  They're still licensed games because I bought them from Steam-- if I tried to sell them, I'd be breaking my agreement with Steam.  DRM-free means you can trade/sell and of course copy/re-install at will.

 

Admittedly, I did an end-around on my own original post.  But at least I have this nice gold star to show for it!  :D


"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Current game:  "LEGO Lord of the Rings" and "Bioshock."  Previous game: "The Stanley Parable."   Updated 18-Mar-2019


#47 Lee-m

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 21:35

[Second attempt to post this.  The RTG forums are flaking out on me, citing difficulties connecting to the DB.]

I think we broke it ;) same for me.

Yeah, although I was able to zip/copy/install a couple of games outside of Steam, I fell into the trap to think that these two games didn't have "DRM," where really they just didn't have copy-protection and launch-time license validation.  They're still licensed games because I bought them from Steam-- if I tried to sell them, I'd be breaking my agreement with Steam.  DRM-free means you can trade/sell and of course copy/re-install at will.

Admittedly, I did an end-around on my own original post.  But at least I have this nice gold star to show for it!  :D

Yes :) You get another <gold star> :)
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#48 Kazoo

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 21:37

[Second attempt to post this.  The RTG forums are flaking out on me, citing difficulties connecting to the DB.]

 

Yeah, although I was able to zip/copy/install a couple of games outside of Steam, I fell into the trap to think that these two games didn't have "DRM," where really they just didn't have copy-protection and launch-time license validation.  They're still licensed games because I bought them from Steam-- if I tried to sell them, I'd be breaking my agreement with Steam.  DRM-free means you can trade/sell and of course copy/re-install at will.

 

Admittedly, I did an end-around on my own original post.  But at least I have this nice gold star to show for it!  :D

 

I don't believe so.  DRM-free means there is no system to prevent you from providing working copies to anyone you want.  That doesn't mean you don't have a license prohibiting it.

 

While you are able to purchase games on GOG that are DRM free, you do not have the right to provide them to the rest of the world.  Otherwise they'd be out of business almost immediately.


"... so many things are possible, just as long as you don't know they're impossible."

             -- The Phantom Tollbooth


#49 trentjaspar

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 21:39

So you're saying that unless required by the game, Steam does not perform any DRM on the game?  That simply argues that Steam, itself, is not DRM, but implements DRM on request.

 

Having a license is not DRM.  We've always had licenses.  They were not DRM.

 

I guess I must've missed the original thread with this argument.  Sorry. :)  Since you guys seem tired of it, I'll just let it go.

 

Steam doesn't perform launch-time license validation unless required by the game.  Steam also only allows installation via their client, at which time it validates your license.  In some cases, you can copy, install, and run a game outside of Steam-- in defiance of the license.

 

We've always had licenses, but Steam licenses are non-transferrable:  that's Management (restriction) of our Digital Rights that didn't used to exist.  They also don't provide installers because it would be much easier to circumvent your license.

 

Again-- none of this bothers me, although it would be nice to be able to trade/gift a game I've installed/played already, just like in the old days.  But it's worth the price not to have to look up the third word of the eighth line of 35th page of the manual every time I want to play...  :urgh:


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"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Current game:  "LEGO Lord of the Rings" and "Bioshock."  Previous game: "The Stanley Parable."   Updated 18-Mar-2019


#50 Lee-m

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 21:44

I don't believe so.  DRM-free means there is no system to prevent you from providing working copies to anyone you want.  That doesn't mean you don't have a license prohibiting it.

You are mixing up DRM and Copy protection again. Thats not DRM and not what DRM free means. Steam enforces the DRM some times, some times not.

While you are able to purchase games on GOG that are DRM free, you do not have the right to provide them to the rest of the world.  Otherwise they'd be out of business almost immediately.

There is no agreement that I know of on gog that says you cant. They work on proving a great service that lets you buy games cheap and easy. thats how they stay in business. Piracy wont kill gog, and they know it.

Also they dont have EA etc breathing down their necks about protecting mass effect 3 on release week.

#51 trentjaspar

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 21:48

I don't believe so.  DRM-free means there is no system to prevent you from providing working copies to anyone you want.  That doesn't mean you don't have a license prohibiting it.

 

While you are able to purchase games on GOG that are DRM free, you do not have the right to provide them to the rest of the world.  Otherwise they'd be out of business almost immediately.

 

I haven't looked at the GOG license, but aren't you allowed to trade or sell your game to somebody else (and provide an installer) as long as you delete it from your HD and don't re-install?  Or maybe there simply is no provision that you can't make copies for all of your friends, but they trust that you won't?  I have no idea.


"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Current game:  "LEGO Lord of the Rings" and "Bioshock."  Previous game: "The Stanley Parable."   Updated 18-Mar-2019


#52 Lee-m

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 21:52

At the risk of being a real a-hole, I kinda consider gog as DRM ;) At least until the point the installer hits your hard drive. But that really is stretching it :)

After you get your download, gog is based on 100% honor. Just how your DFC download should be. Which none of us would ever give to anyone, as you would suck as a human being.

#53 trentjaspar

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 22:13

At the risk of being a real a-hole, I kinda consider gog as DRM ;)

 

You a-hole!!!!!11  :angry:


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"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Current game:  "LEGO Lord of the Rings" and "Bioshock."  Previous game: "The Stanley Parable."   Updated 18-Mar-2019


#54 Lee-m

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 22:16

You a-hole!!!!!11  :angry:

agreed :)
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#55 Kazoo

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 22:27

You are mixing up DRM and Copy protection again. Thats not DRM and not what DRM free means. Steam enforces the DRM some times, some times not.
 

 

And this is the crux of our disagreement.  DRM is not something that is or is not enforced.  A license is or is not enforced and DRM is the thing which does (or does not) enforce it.

 

At its simplest, for our purposes, a license gives us the right to play a specific game.  Without that license, we are not permitted to play it.  That is a license.  Not DRM.  DRM is, as the acronym suggests, all about managing that license.  DRM is not a license and any attempt to call it a license is simply incorrect.

 

DRM does not give you the right to play a game.  DRM simply acknowledges your right and permits the game to be played.

 

If a DRM system fails, it may prevent you from playing a game, but it does not eliminate your right (or license) to play it.

 

GOG makes absolutely zero effort in verifying that you have a right to play a game.  You may consider the fact that GOG verifies your identity before allowing you to download a game you have purchased to be some form of DRM, and while I can agree that GOG is managing your right to download the game, I disagree with it's applicability in the overall argument.  There are many systems in everyday life that manages your right to do things:  A key for your house; The ID badge that lets you into your work place.  These could all be considered mechanisms for managing your right to do things.  So, unless you are willing to concede that those things are also DRM, then you cannot try to position GOG as DRM.


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#56 DiskJunky

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 22:47

...I'm so very tempted to stir the pot and start the argument again :ph34r: :D


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#57 Vainamoinen

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 23:18

I think I'm having deja vu

 

:P

 

 

I'll say, the similar thread in the Double Fine backer forums was much more productive. Then again, I tried hard over there to not focus on the explanation of digital rights management, and more on the central problem with distributing a game - a crowd funded and independency heralding one at that - exclusively through the industry dominating digital PC publisher. The central reason I'm kickstarting developers who advertise "DRM free" is to allow their games to be available through other means and platforms than just Steam.

 

That's why the whole discussion is getting on my nerves though. If a dev ever got on Kickstarter saying "we'll distribute the game DRM free", but then goes on to distribute through Steam exclusively (because "Steam isn't necessarily DRM"), I'd stop discussing the subject. I'd. make. a. fuzz. instead. And call the dev really, really bad names.

 

 

If a developer says his game is available "DRM free", he doesn't mean Steam with it.

We should all  be REALLY glad that this semantic distinction exists, however technically debatable it might be.

If we've slid into an age where a developer and his customers would need 500 words to describe what exactly they mean by "DRM free", the PC has turned into a console already.

 

Let's not go there.


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#58 Jecica

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 23:25

...I'm so very tempted to stir the pot and start the argument again :ph34r: :D

Please don't. *headdesk*

 

Thanks to Ragnar, who replied in a timely manner about the DRM issues. Personally, I'm gonna pick GOG version and then stick it into my Steam library. :)


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#59 Kazoo

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 23:29


If a developer says his game is available "DRM free", he doesn't mean Steam with it.

 

FWIW, I agree with that. 

 

EDIT: Actually.. I agree that he doesn't mean Steam exclusively with it.


"... so many things are possible, just as long as you don't know they're impossible."

             -- The Phantom Tollbooth


#60 Vainamoinen

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 23:36

FWIW, I agree with that. 

 

EDIT: Actually.. I agree that he doesn't mean Steam exclusively with it.

 

 

Of course. I wouldn't want to force a developer to ENTIRELY abstain from Steam distribution.

In times like ours, that would be his death, quite unfortunately. :(


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