Jump to content


Photo

Game DRM/distribution channel


  • Please log in to reply
109 replies to this topic

#21 trentjaspar

trentjaspar

    Vestrum Crier

  • Istrum
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 790 posts
  • LocationMaryland, USA

Posted 30 January 2014 - 19:24

You can be DRM free and still require Steam.

 

DRM is designed to protect against piracy and copying.  No one would have issues with DRM is it always worked and never gave anyone issues or problems.  Requiring a support library is not DRM.

 

I understand many DRM-haters still think of that as DRM, but it really isn't.  It's like saying a game that requires Windows 8.1 to run is DRM protected because I can't play it on Windows 7.

 

Well, I don't mean to re-open the Steam/DRM debate, but I think that anything that Manages your Rights to play Digital content is DRM (see what I did there?).  If you can't reinstall a game on another machine (or hundreds of machines), sell it, trade it, etc., then your Rights to Digital content have been Managed.  It's more than requiring a support library-- it's validating (based on Steam login) that you've bought the game.  You're not even buying a game-- you're buying a license to play the game via Steam.  Because of this, even if DRM always worked (which for Steam it almost always does), I think it's false to say that "no one would have issues with DRM."

 

I do think that the reason some people are opposed to DRM at any costs is because of the checkered past of DRM, but that's beside the point.

 

But like I said before, I don't have a problem with Steam's level of DRM, given the value-add of the Steam platform and that it protects the developers from piracy (as you say).


  • DiskJunky and aeonfluxx75 like this

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Current game:  "LEGO Lord of the Rings" and "Bioshock."  Previous game: "The Stanley Parable."   Updated 18-Mar-2019


#22 DiskJunky

DiskJunky

    Harbinger of the Balance

  • Drachkin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3091 posts
  • LocationBehind you (mwuh ha ha!)

Posted 30 January 2014 - 19:30

I understand many DRM-haters still think of that as DRM, but it really isn't.  It's like saying a game that requires Windows 8.1 to run is DRM protected because I can't play it on Windows 7.

I'm not saying that Steam is just a DRM engine of some sort but it IS one of the main uses of it by developers, ALONG WITH, distrubtion network, sales/marketing tool, analytics, etc.

 

From a customer's point of view, it launches their games and makes sure they're "allowed" to play them - assuming that the game authorizes via Steam. And most do. :)

 

As for being a "DRM hater", I wouldn't consider myself as such. Being a developer myself, I have impelented copy protections schemes over the years but as a gamer and general user of software I find that the DRM used for games in particular has caused me no end of headaches as a customer. So I try to avoid it if given the option and accept it if not.


Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.


#23 Lee-m

Lee-m

    Harbinger of the Balance

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1866 posts
  • LocationYorkshire, England

Posted 30 January 2014 - 19:35

The DRM aspect of Steam is an optional Steamworks component for developers-- implementing it is not required to distribute a game on Steam or to use other Steamworks components.  I've played several games without launching Steam.  You still need the Steam client to install the games in the first place, so I guess that's part of "making things difficult" as well.

We've had this discussion before. I'll say it again I guess.

Steam in ANY form is DRM. Please dont argue it can act as a download manager and isn't DRM. that is nonsense. Its not bad or evil, and almost all of us like it just fine.

DRM is not just to protect from piracy, and isnt always a form of copy protection.

Ragnar is 100% correct.

#24 Kazoo

Kazoo

    Arcadia Native

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPip
  • 325 posts
  • LocationVirginia Beach, VA

Posted 30 January 2014 - 19:45

Ok.. please provide examples where DRM is not intended as some form of copy protection.


"... so many things are possible, just as long as you don't know they're impossible."

             -- The Phantom Tollbooth


#25 AstralTraveller

AstralTraveller

    Arcadia Native

  • Forum Beta Tester
  • PipPipPip
  • 165 posts

Posted 30 January 2014 - 19:47

Kind of. There's a backup option for local content which you can restore onto another machine but in order to actually RUN the games on a new computer/account, you must have bought them against the steam account. In a nutshell, you can transport the files but Steam will still check to see if you're allowed to play them

 

Not necessarily. Some games (eg. Bastion) will run without Steam running. So it's only the download in those cases.


Too many hands on my time, too many feelings
Too many things on my mind
When I leave I don't know what I'm hoping to find
When I leave I don't know what I'm leaving behind

 


#26 Lee-m

Lee-m

    Harbinger of the Balance

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1866 posts
  • LocationYorkshire, England

Posted 30 January 2014 - 19:50

If you don't download the installer (msi, exe, deb) it is still DRM. Being able to move it out of steam apps and still run it, does not make it any less DRM. If you want to reinstall it, you need steam. Thats DRM. Then you have steams terms of service etc

Steam also issues you a key for that game, even if you dont see it.

Bastion is also an example of how its not intended as copy protection. Copy protection and DRM are two different things. They are often merged into one service however. Copy protection can be physical (like starforce) or authentication based (keys, codes etc) which prevent at game from actually running even if you have all the files.

#27 Kazoo

Kazoo

    Arcadia Native

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPip
  • 325 posts
  • LocationVirginia Beach, VA

Posted 30 January 2014 - 19:57

What does DRM provide to Bastion?  What is different if DRM is not present?


"... so many things are possible, just as long as you don't know they're impossible."

             -- The Phantom Tollbooth


#28 trentjaspar

trentjaspar

    Vestrum Crier

  • Istrum
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 790 posts
  • LocationMaryland, USA

Posted 30 January 2014 - 19:57

Steam in ANY form is DRM. Please dont argue it can act as a download manager and isn't DRM. that is nonsense. Its not bad or evil, and almost all of us like it just fine.

 

Okay, yes-- see my later post (#21) and the edit to my original post.  It turns out that some games don't need installers (the two in my examples where I just did a zip-copy-install-sans-Steam) but for the most part, you need the Steam client to (re-)install the game, which is a (reasonable and minor, IMO) form of DRM.


"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Current game:  "LEGO Lord of the Rings" and "Bioshock."  Previous game: "The Stanley Parable."   Updated 18-Mar-2019


#29 Lee-m

Lee-m

    Harbinger of the Balance

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1866 posts
  • LocationYorkshire, England

Posted 30 January 2014 - 20:01

What does DRM provide to Bastion? What is different if DRM is not present?

It manages your right to download and install the game, and requires a 3rd party app to do so every time you want to reinstall. Thats DRM. In this case steam is self is the installer.


I guess you get it or you don't. Its not worth debating passed recognising that backers need a none steam (option) for their DRM free download. GOG would do fine as Ragnar has already stated.

Given the choice between an msi/exe download and a steam key, I would take the steam key as I love steam. But I would only do that as I am getting the DRM free physical version too from the kickstarter (thus I still have a true DRM free version).

#30 trentjaspar

trentjaspar

    Vestrum Crier

  • Istrum
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 790 posts
  • LocationMaryland, USA

Posted 30 January 2014 - 20:11

It manages your right to download and install the game, and requires a 3rd party app to do so every time you want to reinstall. Thats DRM.

 

Well as I've said, some games don't require a 3rd party app to re-install (basically because they don't need an installer-- just a copy of the game folder).  But even with that, what you buy when you buy via Steam is a license to play, not the game itself (which you can sell/trade/etc.).  That's DRM.  ;)


"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Current game:  "LEGO Lord of the Rings" and "Bioshock."  Previous game: "The Stanley Parable."   Updated 18-Mar-2019


#31 Kazoo

Kazoo

    Arcadia Native

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPip
  • 325 posts
  • LocationVirginia Beach, VA

Posted 30 January 2014 - 20:13

If it manages your right to download and install, that's to prevent you from downloading and/or installing it unless you have the right, correct?

 

Maybe I missed some fine point, but, to me, that's copy protection.


"... so many things are possible, just as long as you don't know they're impossible."

             -- The Phantom Tollbooth


#32 Lee-m

Lee-m

    Harbinger of the Balance

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1866 posts
  • LocationYorkshire, England

Posted 30 January 2014 - 20:17

If it manages your right to download and install, that's to prevent you from downloading and/or installing it unless you have the right, correct?
 
Maybe I missed some fine point, but, to me, that's copy protection.

Yes you have ;)

It doesn't stop you physically copying the game. It just manages your right to access it.

Anyway, im starting to sound even more like a crazy complaining tech obsessed mad man than usual. I'll leave it at that.

#33 Kazoo

Kazoo

    Arcadia Native

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPip
  • 325 posts
  • LocationVirginia Beach, VA

Posted 30 January 2014 - 20:26

:) You're playing semantics regarding the inherent ambiguity of the word 'copy.'

 

In the end, DRM's sole purpose is to prevent you from playing a game that you don't have the right to play.  That is commonly called "copy protection."  Just like having to look up a word in a manual before you could start a game was called "copy protection."  You could obtain a copy of the same, but if you didn't have the manual or the wheel or whatever, you'd be unable to play.

 

That has always been considered covered by the term "copy protection."


"... so many things are possible, just as long as you don't know they're impossible."

             -- The Phantom Tollbooth


#34 trentjaspar

trentjaspar

    Vestrum Crier

  • Istrum
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 790 posts
  • LocationMaryland, USA

Posted 30 January 2014 - 20:26

If it manages your right to download and install, that's to prevent you from downloading and/or installing it unless you have the right, correct?

 

Maybe I missed some fine point, but, to me, that's copy protection.

With Steam, you're buying a license to play a game and you're not allowed to sell* that license.  That's DRM.  Copy-protection obviously helps to enforce that.

 

That's actually the one problem I have with Steam-based DRM.  I wish I could trade or give away a game, relinquishing my right to play/install it.  I don't see why the technology wouldn't exist to support this, but one would have to think they'd rather people buy the games than play-then-trade a game.

 

*or trade, once you've installed the game once


  • Lee-m likes this

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Current game:  "LEGO Lord of the Rings" and "Bioshock."  Previous game: "The Stanley Parable."   Updated 18-Mar-2019


#35 Lee-m

Lee-m

    Harbinger of the Balance

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1866 posts
  • LocationYorkshire, England

Posted 30 January 2014 - 20:29

..so we are agreed then, steam in any form is at least DRM.
 

With Steam, you're buying a license to play a game and you're not allowed to sell* that license. That's DRM. Copy-protection obviously helps to enforce that.

*or trade, once you've installed the game once

100% correct <gives you a gold star> Matters not about enforcing it.


Some one sticky this so I never have to explain this again ! I might go crazy(er) (which will suck for everyone ;) )
  • trentjaspar likes this

#36 Kazoo

Kazoo

    Arcadia Native

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPip
  • 325 posts
  • LocationVirginia Beach, VA

Posted 30 January 2014 - 20:32

With Steam, you're buying a license to play a game and you're not allowed to sell* that license.  That's DRM.  Copy-protection obviously helps to enforce that.

 

*or trade, once you've installed the game once

 

While most DRM systems do not provide for transferring the license, it would be possible for a DRM system to allow that.  It would still be considered DRM.

 

Steam is looking into an ability to allow you to temporarily transfer licenses to friends and family.  That is still DRM.  The original Xbox One still allowed friends and family to play a game licensed to you.  Again... that is still DRM.

 

DRM simply controls who can play a licensed game and how that license may be manipulated.


"... so many things are possible, just as long as you don't know they're impossible."

             -- The Phantom Tollbooth


#37 Kazoo

Kazoo

    Arcadia Native

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPip
  • 325 posts
  • LocationVirginia Beach, VA

Posted 30 January 2014 - 20:37

..so we are agreed then, steam in any form is at least DRM.
 
100% correct <gives you a gold star> Matters not about enforcing it.


Some one sticky this so I never have to explain this again ! I might go crazy (which will suck for everyone ;) )

 

I don't agree. :)  I agree that Steam provides DRM services to games that want them.  In fact, most Steam games use it.  However, as has already been shown, Steam can be used to obtain and play a game that has no license restrictions.  No license implies no rights to manage.  The fact that you might need Steam to simply run it does not make it DRM.


"... so many things are possible, just as long as you don't know they're impossible."

             -- The Phantom Tollbooth


#38 Lee-m

Lee-m

    Harbinger of the Balance

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1866 posts
  • LocationYorkshire, England

Posted 30 January 2014 - 20:40

I don't agree. :)  I agree that Steam provides DRM services to games that want them.  In fact, most Steam games use it.  However, as has already been shown, Steam can be used to obtain and play a game that has no license restrictions.  No license implies no rights to manage.  The fact that you might need Steam to simply run it does not make it DRM.

Then re-read everything. and keep re-reading it until you understand. Or just accept the point I made about how DFC needs to be given to backers.

Then re-read it again.

#39 Kazoo

Kazoo

    Arcadia Native

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPip
  • 325 posts
  • LocationVirginia Beach, VA

Posted 30 January 2014 - 20:43

DFC will be available via GOG.  Hence your DRM issues are resolved that way. 

 

I have reread what you've said.  And I maintain that, if there is no license, there can be no DRM.  If you are correct in your assertion, surely that should be an easy point to refute.


"... so many things are possible, just as long as you don't know they're impossible."

             -- The Phantom Tollbooth


#40 Lee-m

Lee-m

    Harbinger of the Balance

  • Vestrum
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1866 posts
  • LocationYorkshire, England

Posted 30 January 2014 - 20:47

DFC will be available via GOG.

It may be. No deal is done there.

Steam always has a license. Re read trentjaspar's comment.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users