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FPS drops with GPU usage around 50%.


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#21 Ikon

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 20:09

So I downloaded the video to my Surface Pro and played it. I have to say, it didn't look different from what I saw when using FF. What I noticed is that the background (buildings mainly) had slight 'hiccups' in the panning. Zoe herself looked fine. I asked before but you haven't answered, is the background what you're talking about?

 

Unity vs UnReal. Well, the biggest reason for choosing Unity is cost. UnReal costs tens of thousands of $. Most small studios can't afford it. Big Finish Games chose Unity for Tex Murphy: The Tesla Effect for that very reason. It's part of the price you pay for not having millions of $ to play with.


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#22 Lee-m

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 20:09

Well, Unity was their engine of choice - I am assuming they did some research beforehand and knew the consequences.

I think their research consisted of looking at their wallets and the ticking clock. The aim seems to be 30fps.. I think they have that now on most systems. Bravo to them right now I say.
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#23 Simplex

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 20:23

So I downloaded the video to my Surface Pro and played it. I have to say, it didn't look different from what I saw when using FF. What I noticed is that the background (buildings mainly) had slight 'hiccups' in the panning. Zoe herself looked fine. I asked before but you haven't answered, is the background what you're talking about?

I answered this in response to another user's post. And to reiterate - the hiccups are manifestation of drops in framerate. If there was full 60fps, they would not be visible. You can observe how the framerate drops by looking at the data in the top-left corner of the video.
Ideally, the framerate should only drop if GPU usage is close to 100%.

And to which download do you refer - the one from mega.co.nz?
If you did not see the difference, then maybe your hardware is not powerful enough to playback high-bitrate 1080p content in 60fps (in which case I suggest using the downloader software I linked in the first post to download youtube version) - or you may simply be a person that does not see much difference between 30 and 60 fps and that is perfectly fine.
 

Unity vs UnReal. Well, the biggest reason for choosing Unity is cost. UnReal costs tens of thousands of $. Most small studios can't afford it. Big Finish Games chose Unity for Tex Murphy: The Tesla Effect for that very reason. It's part of the price you pay for not having millions of $ to play with.

 
I admit, I do not know how much Unreal Engine costs - I did some research and it is possible it costs over $300k which would make RTG's choice the only sensible one. I read about some cheaper license but it concerns UE4: http://www.polygon.c...tion-epic-games
 

I think their research consisted of looking at their wallets and the ticking clock. The aim seems to be 30fps.. I think they have that now on most systems. Bravo to them right now I say.

Wasteland 2 was almost a year late, basically every Kickstarter gaming project is late 6 months or more (Armikrog was recently delayed for the second time, into 2015, original release date was July 2014). So I daresay that if RTG decided to delay DFC in order to make a better game, fans would accept, But of course the delay means increased cost, so perhaps they could not afford it (and the game was in fact delayed, because we only got 20% of the game on the original release date of the full game).

#24 Lee-m

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 20:40

Wasteland 2 was almost a year late, basically every Kickstarter gaming project is late 6 months or more (Armikrog was recently delayed for the second time, into 2015, original release date was July 2014). So I daresay that if RTG decided to delay DFC in order to make a better game, fans would accept, But of course the delay means increased cost, so perhaps they could not afford it (and the game was in fact delayed, because we only got 20% of the game on the original release date of the full game).

They didnt delay, they went back to the original plan of being episodic. Infact with book 1 being about 5 hours, I think we just got 50% more game by waiting it out over the next year.

The big plus point has always been the opportunity to hang on these forums and talk about TLJ, which will now be even better between episodes. I believe it is a major plus that most games do not have. Check out the plot discussions and speculation, it spans 15 years.

You choose your own level of involvement. We even get frequent reply's from Ragnar (or if you are me bollockings). Its worth a alot.

fps discussions passed this point is for the next crysis game now performance is sorted :)

#25 Ikon

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 20:51

I downloaded the YouTube video. Played it on my Surface Pro and my HTPC (i5, 8GB RAM, GTX 750 Ti HDMI to Sony Bravia 60"). As I said, I can see some uneveness in the way the buildings pan by in the background. I don't see what I would traditionally call 'dropped frames', certainly not any blackouts. I did notice that you seem to be getting low 40s to high 50s framerates. Unfortunately, your text at the top left of the frame did not seem to indicate a dropped frame rate.

 

I'm not sure about seeing the difference between 30 and 60 frames. I can tell you I do notice, and am bothered by, TVs running at 50 fps, especially if I see them out of the corner of my eye. Low-frequency fluorescent lights also bother me.


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#26 khh

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 21:59

They didnt delay, they went back to the original plan of being episodic. Infact with book 1 being about 5 hours, I think we just got 50% more game by waiting it out over the next year.

The big plus point has always been the opportunity to hang on these forums and talk about TLJ, which will now be even better between episodes. I believe it is a major plus that most games do not have. Check out the plot discussions and speculation, it spans 15 years.

You choose your own level of involvement. We even get frequent reply's from Ragnar (or if you are me bollockings). Its worth a alot.

fps discussions passed this point is for the next crysis game now performance is sorted :)

While I basically agree with everything else you've said in this thread, going episodic is a delaying tactic. It ensures they simultaneously get both the time to work more on the game, and the funds to pay their employees for that time. Not that I'm unhappy with the decision. And you are right, we do get more bang for our buck this way.


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#27 Simplex

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 22:33

They didnt delay, they went back to the original plan of being episodic.

Full game was supposed to be released in November, but only part 1 of 5 was released. That is a delay for me. I am not criticizing or complaining, because I understand the reasons for the delay and I know we will get a better game as a result. Which does not change the fact that a delay happened - 99% of kickstarter games are delayed :)

 

I downloaded the YouTube video. Played it on my Surface Pro and my HTPC (i5, 8GB RAM, GTX 750 Ti HDMI to Sony Bravia 60"). As I said, I can see some uneveness in the way the buildings pan by in the background. I don't see what I would traditionally call 'dropped frames', certainly not any blackouts. I did notice that you seem to be getting low 40s to high 50s framerates. Unfortunately, your text at the top left of the frame did not seem to indicate a dropped frame rate.

How would that be indicated? Next to fps count there is meter of "frametime", i.e how long a frame stays on screen. When the game runs in stable 60fps, frametime is 16.66ms (16.66 times 60 equals 1000ms, i.e a full second). When it's not, frametime varies - which is the case here.

Also I'm not sure what you mean when you say that you do not see "dropped frames" - for me, if my refresh rate is 60Hz and I am using vsync, then every time fps is lower than my refresh rate the frames are in fact dropped. Ideally, 60Hz should equal 60frames, especially when gpu usage is 50%. 40fps means 20 frames are dropped.

 

Also, this may be a stupid question, but did you download the video using the software I linked to? If yes, what was the size of the downloaded file?



#28 Lee-m

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 22:37

While I basically agree with everything else you've said in this thread, going episodic is a delaying tactic..

yeah ok... But its not a right out delay. Big difference. After the years run, we will all have a bigger game.


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#29 Lee-m

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 22:42

Full game was supposed to be released in November, but only part 1 of 5 was released. That is a delay for me. I am not criticizing or complaining

but its not a delay when part 1 comes out before the full thing was intended to.

Not sure how I ended up as the RTG apologist, I was the one giving them a hard time and at least on the end of 2 Ragnar bollockings when the various announcements came out. All I can say is, I believe RTG did the right thing eventually on most accounts. They should have listened to me earlier tho ;)


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#30 Ikon

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 22:52

I do not recall it's name, but I used to use a small app that actually displayed the count of dropped frames. It might have been FurMark, but FurMark is a GPU benchmarking program, not a game FPS tester.

 

What I mean by I can't see the dropped frames is, regardless of what some statistical application may see, when I look at the video I don't have a conscious sense of frames being dropped. IOW, I don't care if the framerate is less than 60, if I can't notice it it doesn't matter to me. Now, I fully recognise, if any frames are dropped in a FPS game, it can lead to you getting fragged a lot more often than you would otherwise.

 

I used an app called Hyper for YouTube to download the video (I don't really want to add another app to my Surface). It does allow me to download 1080P video, which I did. The file is 14MB (14,717 on my Surface).


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#31 Lee-m

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 22:56

regardless of what some statistic application may see, when I look at the video I don't have a conscious sense of frames being dropped.

+1

 

some one else may. But its solid performance now.



#32 Simplex

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 23:07

I do notice the drops without looking at the fps counter, perhaps this video is not the best example of that. I am also playing on a gamepad, not mouse, which may exacerbate the perceived loss of fluidity.
And while I am sure that performance is greatly improved in the patch, I would not go as far as to call it "solid", if a powerful GPU is unable to render 60fps while being underused at the same time. Like I said, I will experiment with limiting framerate to 40, which should eliminate perceptible drops from 60.

#33 Lee-m

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 23:23

At this point I would say its less of an issue, and more of a preference. We'll see some more work on it before book 2 :)



#34 Mr Moo

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 23:49

I will turn on v-sync if possible, as screen tearing bothers me a lot. Low frame rate doesn't bother me at all, unless fps is like < 10. YMMV. :P



#35 khh

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 00:07

I will turn on v-sync if possible, as screen tearing bothers me a lot. Low frame rate doesn't bother me at all, unless fps is like < 10. YMMV. :P

See here: http://redthreadgame...ase/#entry42750


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#36 Mr Moo

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 00:10

 

Thanks. If I start noticing any tearing, I'll look into D3DOverrider. I suspect I rarely get >60 fps, and then it isn't an issue. :D



#37 Simplex

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 06:59

At this point I would say its less of an issue, and more of a preference. We'll see some more work on it before book 2 :)

I agree that wanting to play in 60fps is a preference. Guilty as charged, that is the reason I bought 780Ti for obscene amount of money ;)
But the issue is that the game is not utilizing the full power of the GPU. If GPU usage is 50% (half of the card is not doing anything) and at the same time there are FPS drops, then it indicates a problem - more specifically, a bottleneck.

#38 Mr_Russ

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 12:41

I found the Morten quote I'd been looking for.

 

http://redthreadgame...lag/#entry38955


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#39 Simplex

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 20:12

The problem is that the game is using only two cores/threads even when you have 4 core/8 thread CPU - and also it is not even using these 2 cores efficiently, since I have framedrops and the cores are not 100% loaded.



#40 Lee-m

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 20:32

The problem is that the game is using only two cores/threads even when you have 4 core/8 thread CPU - and also it is not even using these 2 cores efficiently, since I have framedrops and the cores are not 100% loaded.

That is most likely not going to change as long as the game uses Unity 4, and they don't have 20 programmers working on nothing but modifying the game engine. There will be only so much RTG can do.

 

If your expectations are a fully optimised, highly threaded rock solid 60fps experience that makes the best use of an 8 core cpu, I would suggest looking up the latest AAA games from Crytek, EA and Rock*.
As for DFC, 30 fps is fit for purpose.


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